Oh My Fraud

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Caleb: Once upon a time there was a world when there was no Covid 19. It was a magical era before anyone knew what an N95 mask was or the president told people to drink bleach. Yes, it was a different time indeed. But bad things still happened. Hurricanes and tornadoes, wildfires and floods, blizzards and earthquakes still ravaged the land. But not only the land. People to their homes, their livelihoods. And when disaster strikes, Greg, who do people turn to?

Greg: Ghostbusters. Do they turn to Ghostbusters? Sometimes.

Caleb: No. But I think maybe small businesses, if we're talking about small businesses especially, I think at least in the pre-pandemic era, many people didn't know where to turn to when disaster would strike. Sure. For example, I don't really know how well known the Small Business Administration was, or even if people knew what things like disaster loan assistance was. But yeah, that's something that the SBA has done for a long time. And they made loans to people and to businesses who had suffered substantial economic injury. So anyway. When disaster strikes, government money tries to come to the rescue. Yeah. And we're going to discuss one program in particular in this episode. The Economic Injury Disaster Loan program, aka Eidl.

Greg: That's right, Caleb. This is American Idol fraud.

Blake: If you'd like to earn CPE credit for listening to this episode, visit Earmark Cpcomm. Download the app, take a short quiz and get your CPE certificate. Continuing education has never been so easy. And now on to the episode.

Caleb: This is Omar Fraud, a true crime podcast where instead of obsessing over serial killers, we raise petty swindlers. I'm Caleb Nyquist.

Greg: And I'm Greg Kite.

Caleb: Greg, should we read a recent review?

Greg: I would love to read a recent review. Do you have one at hand?

Caleb: I do. I have one at hand. It's from a few months ago, but it's it's perfectly fine. It's from Smokin Idahoan who gave who gave us five stars and wrote, quote, entertaining and informative. Plus you can earn cp's 1000 x better than webinars or self-study. Highly recommend.

Greg: Nice. Nice. That's awesome. Thanks. Smokin idahoan.

Caleb: And for anyone else out there, please rate the show and leave us a review and one of us will read it on a future episode. Uh, Greg, do you have any memories of natural disasters growing up?

Greg: I do, as a matter of fact. And it's kind of a funny memory because even at my advanced age, I very specifically remember the morning of Sunday, May 18th, 1980, because that's the that is the day that Mount Saint Helens blew in southwestern Washington state. Yeah, big one. So I was I was just it was just days before my eighth birthday and and the and and it's so funny because what I remember I don't remember the explosion of the eruption. What I remember is my mom rushing into me and my brother's room and going, oh, my gosh, is everybody okay? Because me and my brother totally slept through it.

Caleb: Slept through the whole thing.

Greg: Yeah, we had no idea. But then obviously, like at school, we're watching the news. It was a big damn deal. Yeah. What had happened, but. But, yeah, so obviously, it woke my mom up and freaked the hell out of her. She said that because she was shocked that we did not wake up with it because she said it sounded this is this is her quote that I remember again from when I was eight. She said it sounded like a boulder fell through our carport because, you know, you think about it like the corrugated metal of a carport and a big ass boulder that paints a good picture. Also, we were we were some of the fancy people in Mountlake Terrace, Washington, because we had a carport. But but here's the crazy thing about it. Like what my mom said and how bad it freaked her out. We lived like well over a hundred miles away from where Mount Saint Helens was. I think I was I was trying to look it up on Google Maps. And they only so I wasn't able to figure out like crow flies, Miles, because obviously sound wouldn't take the interstate to get to us. But but yeah, one way or another, we're over 100 miles away from it and still sounded like a boulder crashing through our carport.

Caleb: That is a good one. Yeah, I wondered I wondered I wondered if you were going to bring that up because. Because it's like. Because you grew up in Washington. Yeah.

Greg: Yeah, exactly.

Caleb: But anyway.

Greg: Do you have do you have any I'm assuming because again, I know where you grew up, so I assume that you have disasters. And my guess I have a very specific disaster in mind as to what your natural disasters are, where you lived.

Caleb: Oh, you do? Oh, yes. Okay. So, yeah, um, most most people that listen to the show know. But I grew up in Nebraska, you know, on the on the Great Plains. Yep. And I have countless memories from my youth of tornadoes.

Greg: Oh, like, wait. Like, like tornado. Like getting the. Because what, they got, like, sirens. Like, just hearing sirens or actual tornadoes touching down in your city.

Caleb: Whatever. I mean, so it bears some explanation. Yes, we had whistles. I lived in a small town and people who grew up in small towns know that, like when there's emergencies, like whistles blow. Right. And so, yeah, we would they would blow whistles for tornado watches and tornado warnings, probably mostly for tornado warnings. I don't know if they blew them for watches. Okay. But where I lived in Nebraska, we we we were we were located in Valley County. And guess where it got its name?

Greg: And so was it like a was it like on the top of a hill?

Caleb: Yeah, you got it. Anyway, because we were in a valley. It was it was difficult for it was difficult for the tornadoes to actually reach the town. They it was harder for them to touch down in those areas. Okay. But there was the conditions for tornadoes was like every like every summer, like multiple times a summer, like the the lots of severe weather. And so, like tornado watches, you know, they're a dime a dozen. So on June 3rd, 1987, tornadoes touched down in or near Grand Island, Nebraska, and killed five people and injured 200 oh oh. And so quite the thing. So tornadoes, tornadoes are definitely like it's kind of in my psyche at all times. But you know what's weird is like like I talked to some people and some people are just terrified of tornadoes. Yeah. And like, when I think about them, I don't really think about I, I the fear is not something I experience. Yeah, it is. It is like, uh, wholesome living is what I kind of. Right, Like, that's.

Greg: Like eating a fresh apple while chewing on a stalk of grass in the. Back. Your grandpa's? Yeah.

Caleb: It's trunk. Yeah. It's kind of nostalgic and romantic, So.

Greg: So natural disasters. Here's. Here's another crazy thing. Not that I've experienced, but I just. And again, not a humble brag. This is. This is a full on cocky brag. I just. I just closed on buying a condo on the big island of Hawaii. Oh, nice. I am now. I now own a vacation home in Hawaii.

Caleb: Which is proximity of an active volcano.

Greg: Exactly. Exactly, exactly.

Caleb: You can't you can't escape it. Greg in Paradise, though, right? Worth it. So historically economic injury disaster loans idle, if you remember. Yes. They've been for small businesses, small agricultural cooperatives and most private nonprofit organizations.

Greg: Okay.

Caleb: Okay.

Greg: That makes sense.

Caleb: What does small mean? The best that I can. I love I.

Greg: Love that you say that because it has to be. It's since all this stuff is like government programs, it's all well defined, well defined, small, but but also the, the, the level of detail they get into with their definitions of small can can give can give you a brain freeze.

Caleb: Yeah. So let me just preemptively. State that. There's a lot of accountants in our audience, and if we get something wrong, they're going to scream at their mobile device or wherever they get their podcasts. Uh, and so if we get something wrong, just gently correct us in an email or something and we will be fine.

Greg: But we know, we know you're smarter than us. It's okay. We're fine.

Caleb: Yeah, but so if we so we are going to say some things and like some of these details, I think we got most of it right. But if we didn't, just let us know, okay.

Greg: And that's a big deal. And, and generally, because it's not we're not a tax podcast and we're not a governmental compliance podcast, a lot of it's just oversimplification for the sake of time, right? Yeah.

Caleb: So small. What does small mean? Because my friend Greg is correct. These, these, these government programs tend to define literally everything. And so in this case, to the best that I could find, small generally means a business with fewer than 500 employees, which many people would say that's not a small business, but absolutely. Yeah, yeah, but but for the purposes of many of these programs, including Eidl, it is. Okay. So that's number one. Number two, what about substantial economic injury? What does that mean?

Greg: Again, seems more nebulous, but also seems like the Government's going to try to lock that shit down.

Caleb: Right? So according to the Small Business Administration's website, that is when a quote, business is unable to meet its obligations and pay its ordinary and necessary operating expenses.

Greg: That sounds nebulous and doesn't sound like they really locked that down. Right. A lot of subjectivity to that definition.

Caleb: Few more details. The SBA can provide an idle. For up to $2 million at an interest rate no greater than 4% a year and for a term up to 30 years, depending on the borrower's ability to repay the loan. Yes. Okay. Yep. Tracking. Greg.

Greg: I'm right. I'm right there with you. This is bringing back a lot of the the PTSD from the pandemic days. So. Yes.

Caleb: Fantastic. I'm there with you. It's the it's the PTSD we all share, right? Right. A few more important details. Idle assistance is available only to small businesses when SBA determines they are unable to obtain credit elsewhere.

Greg: Gotcha. You can't get you can't. You're out. You're out of credit. So we'll. We'll step in. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. That's interesting.

Caleb: A business may qualify for both an idle and a physical disaster loan. So that's another program that the SBA does. Okay. The maximum combined loan is the 2 million.

Greg: Still 2 million. Gotcha. Now, here's one other thing that I that I believe. Well, not that I believe that I know happened, at least with the Covid 19 pandemic. Idle loans is that they all like they loaned the money during the pandemic, but they didn't require repayment of the loan until like for I think it was like either 12 or 24 months after you you actually got the money. So there also it seems like another aspect of this is there could be deferment of your payment initially, at least until I guess the SBA determined that the the disaster was over.

Caleb: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that that sounds familiar to me. I don't remember the exact details, but I do. Yeah, I know that.

Greg: I know that happened again. I can't remember if it was 12 or 24 months, but I do know that that happened with Covid 19 eidl loans.

Caleb: Okay. Now there is one more important thing that needs defined here, Greg. Do you know what it is? Uh huh. We don't know what a disaster is.

Greg: Oh, right. Yeah, it makes sense.

Caleb: Right? So we have to define a disaster. Okay, so what constitutes a disaster?

Greg: Yeah, because. Yeah, because it's like. Yeah, because you have to have substantial economic injury. So we had to define that. But that injury had to come from a disaster. So yeah, I guess you have to define what.

Caleb: A disaster disaster has to be defined for disaster loans. That means you have to have been impacted by a federally declared disaster. So, okay, the the let's just say that if you have your if you have doubts about the government, then what the government decides is a federally to declare disaster is probably not giving you much comfort. Do you know.

Greg: What I'm saying? Oh, really? Why do you think they're too? Because I did look at the SBA's list of of the currently declared disasters on their website. I did. I did look. And it looked like there was lots they had I was like, oh, there's plenty. There was probably two dozen just in this year so far.

Caleb: Right. And I guess what all I'm getting at is like if you if you're, you know, if you're more conservative, if you kind of like if you if you fall on that end of the political spectrum, then you're probably kind of cynical about. What the government says and says, says and doesn't say is a disaster. That's what I was getting at.

Greg: Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But I get what you're saying. To your point, it's like, oh, you stubbed your toe. It's a disaster. It's a disaster. Right.

Caleb: But to your point, yes, the SBA, it's very easy to find the federally there is a page for federally declared disasters and it's very long and it has the cause and like very long. And when it started, when it was or when it was officially declared. Anyway, so anyway, as you might expect, when the Covid 19 pandemic struck, it was a big fucking disaster.

Greg: Right? Although, to your point, not really. I mean, it's not a disaster. Like, I mean, when we talked about disasters, we weren't talking, you know, none of us brought up we both brought up disasters that happened in the 1980s. None of us said that, you know, the talked about Aids as being a disaster. Right? So so, so the whole idea of like a like a Yeah. Of a pandemic of.

Caleb: A public health crisis, a.

Greg: Public health crisis being a disaster. Exactly. That's that seems outside of the box but also makes sense.

Caleb: Yeah. And so during this particular disaster, a lot more people started learning about economic injury disaster loans very quickly because all 50 states were declared eligible for disaster assistance during the pandemic.

Greg: Because of the unprecedented nature of the Covid 19 pandemic, a lot of changes were made to the Idol program so that more businesses could access the funds. And so that and so that those funds could be accessed more quickly. So for starters, the Coronavirus Aid, Relief and Economic Security Act, we knew that as the Cares Act that passed in March 2020, that attributed $10 billion in funds to the Idol program. Also, the Cares Act allowed businesses applying for Idol loans to obtain a $10,000 advance within three days of their application being received, and that $10,000 advance was treated like a grant. So it meant that it's just like you're in, you're in trouble, here's some money. You don't have to repay it. It's a grant. We're granting you this money. So. So just don't die on us. Here again, it's a it's emergency emergency cash for emergency needs makes total sense to me. The only catch was with that advance, it had to be used on payroll, rent or mortgage payments or increased costs of materials or supplies, or for other obligations that couldn't be met due to a loss in revenue. So we all remember this pretty clearly. You know, that's very similar to the requirements that they had for PPE loans and what those funds could be spent on. But yeah, so like we said. Payroll, rent, mortgage and and increased costs, which I'm glad that that was part of it because I didn't expect the supply chain issues and the, you know, the scramble for different materials during that time.

Greg: So that was that seemed like a like a very prescient thing for them to include in that. Now, some people probably don't remember this, but in those early heady days of the pandemic, all the emergency funds allocated to programs like PGP and like Eidl, they all ran out. Like, do you remember that? I do remember that. I remember it. Yeah, I remember. Well, the main thing that I remember was because I was on because I did apply for a loan for my for the two businesses that I that I run. And and the main thing I remember is going everybody saying the money can and likely will run out. So get your application in as soon as you possibly can. So that you don't so you're not left out in the cold. So I made sure I was as front of the line as I could with getting my stuff put in. And we fortunately did get p dollars in the first round, which was which was great. But yeah, like they did run out. They did indeed run out and there was countless desperate businesses that didn't get any of the aid that they desperately needed during that time. Yeah, the for instance, just as an example, the Paycheck Protection Program had $349 billion when it first opened its floodgates of financial relief to the people on April 3rd of 2020. And it ran out exactly 13 days later on April 16th, 2020. So, yeah, the the money was desperately needed and got got gobbled up quickly.

Caleb: That's nuts to me, by the way. That is just like we're we're over three years removed from that now. Yeah. And like the idea that that much money was just it just it all got sent out. Yeah. Is is is bananas to me.

Greg: Right. Well, and, you know, maybe this is maybe this is a, you know, maybe I'm putting this out there too soon in the podcast. But we did talk about this on our PGP episode where I'm I'm struck with the fact that the government is in a rock and a hard place in situations like this where they can either get the money out fast to help people, but then they're going to then they're going to get raked over the coals for the fact that it was too sloppy how they did it. But you can't be fast and not be sloppy or you can roll it out in a much more systematic way, much more careful way, but then it's going to go a whole lot slower and you're not going to be able to help the people who really need the help. So very much a rock and a hard place. And and I would say from my snowflake position that I that I live in, I'm happy that they they got the stuff out quickly to the people who needed it. That's that's my personal opinion. But but that was that was the money. But idle, you know, wasn't exactly the same program and fortunately Idle and its accompanying grant programs that we just talked about they were replenished by the Paycheck Protection program and by the Health Care Enhancement Act, which passed in April 2020, which added another 10 billion for the advances those grants and another 50 billion for the actual Eidl loans. So there was there was money that kept getting and we know that the PPE loans also got refreshed. So there was there was a constant spigot of money that was being put into these things. And with all this, as you might expect and as I alluded to and as we saw with the Paycheck Protection Program on prior podcasts, so much money sloshing around specifically in the Eidl program, it attracted the attention of a lot of people who had less than the best intentions with what they could do with a shit ton of government handouts.

Caleb: Let's start with some stats. According to a report dated April 28th, 2022, the Small Business Administration approved over 3.9 million loans for a total of $378 Million.

Greg: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Are you talking 3.9 million idle loans or is that idle plus peop.

Caleb: No, that's idle. Wow. It's it's in the show notes. It's the most recent report I could find from the SBA. Okay. So I know we jumped ahead because you were just talking about in the you know, you were just talking about a minute ago the replenishment of, you know, of idle for 50 billion. Yeah, I don't again, I don't recall all the steps along the way where like. Funds were replenished or whatever. But that report is in the show notes. The numbers are there, like on the second or third page, it's all there. Um, those are the idol figures.

Greg: Okay, but there's still their eye popping. Three ah, 3.9 million Idol loans. That's. That's a crazy number of loans. Yeah.

Caleb: Unfortunately, I could not. I had a hard time finding a more recent number. So if anyone knows of a more recent, more accurate number that's been reported, please let us know.

Greg: We'd love to hear it.

Caleb: Yeah, we'd love to hear it. So this report, that report I just mentioned was was issued in 2022. However, there were signs of trouble in this program long before that. The SBA's inspector general, its internal audit department, if you will, they issued a report in October of 2020. So we're just like getting. Things are just starting to get interesting in October of 2020.

Greg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because because I mean, basically six months into the pandemic, the SBA is already going, Oh, this is we're having some troubles here with the old Eidl program. Yeah. Wow.

Caleb: So here's here's what that report said again in the show notes. I'm quoting now, As of July 31st, 2020, SBA had received over 14 million Covid 19 Eidl applications, of which it approved 3.2 3.2 million for a total of $169.3 billion. Additionally, SBA had disbursed 5.8 million emergency advance grants for $20 billion. So we're talking about $190 billion in July of 2020. And I did some I did some very simple math. And because Greg is a former middle school math teacher, he's going to keep me honest. That approval rate is basically 23%. So 3.2 million loans, 14 million applications. Yeah.

Greg: Okay. Okay.

Caleb: That makes 23%. Not great. Not great. Well, great. More than three quarters of the people who are applying are not getting any aid at all. Right.

Greg: But but but again, so I hear what you're saying. But also, it does mean that they're not just handing checks to everybody.

Caleb: Fair enough. Yeah.

Greg: So true.

Caleb: True. And also, if you are, you know, keeping score at home, if you average the 3.2 million, 3.2 million loans, 169 billion in proceeds, average loan size of about $53,000. Gotcha. Yeah. Okay.

Greg: For some reason that feels that feels about right because you're talking because again, we're talking small businesses like Verizon isn't getting an idle loan.

Caleb: Certainly not. Certainly not. And again, just for those people scoring at home for the advances, 5.8 million advances, $20 billion, average advance about 3500 bucks, which is weird because they were going to grant they were granting people ten grand. Yeah. So that I don't know. I'm kind of like a whatever.

Greg: Yeah, that. Well, and again, here's the thing. We talked about this a little bit before we started recording the requirements, the different all of the stuff. That's why there's the PTSD involved with all this stuff, because they would say, Oh, hey, you just apply for it and we'll just cut you a check right away for ten, you know, for $10,000. But then they're like, Oh, wait, but then you have to do this math because you might not qualify for all 10,000. And later they're like, Oh, we're just going to give everybody I mean, I don't remember all the math, but that's how everything felt where it's like, Here's the rules today, and then tomorrow it's like, Oh, we decided to change them a little bit. And then the next day it's like, Oh, we're back to it. Because that was too much of a pain in the ass and all this stuff. So. So yeah, the whole idea that they were all $10,000, but the math doesn't work out. It's like, Yeah, that's because everything was in constant flux every goddamn day of the pandemic.

Caleb: Yeah. So in that same inspector general report, I'm quoting again, but there's more stuff that is not going to make you feel great. So here we go. Quote, Based on our analysis of SBA's Covid 19 Eidl data as of July 31st, 2020, we found SBA approved 14.3 billion, 13.4 billion dispersed in Eidl and COVID idols, two accounts that differed from the original bank accounts listed on the loan applications.

Greg: Okay.

Caleb: Okay.

Greg: Not okay.

Caleb: Not great probably.

Greg: Right? Right. Well, yes and no. I mean, it would seem that I could see that being a red flag. I could I, I could see why that might happen in real life, though, too.

Caleb: Sure. Okay, Fair enough. I'll continue. 62.7 billion 58 billion dispersed in multiple COVID-19 idols to applicants using the same IP addresses, email addresses, bank accounts or businesses listed at the same addresses.

Greg: Okay again. Definitely a red flag for some of those things. But again, I, I run multiple businesses and I applied for loans for both of them, likely from the same email address for the two businesses. So I can see where that would raise some eyebrows. I think that's a red flag needs to be looking more but I could also see legit that where that's legitimate in some cases, which is probably why they dispersed it because they said it's a red flag. We're not going to look into it because we just need to get money to people who are hurting. So I get it. I get I get the hesitancy, but I don't I don't know if it's necessarily for sure means that there's nefarious players at work.

Caleb: Okay. Finally, 1.1 billion in Covid 19 Idles and emergency advanced grants to potentially ineligible businesses. Okay.

Greg: I have nothing to say with that. Okay. Because because because, again, if they if they know they're potentially ineligible businesses and they just decide to give them the the grants, they know what they're they know what they're doing. Yeah. And again, they're just trying to help because potentially there's a lot of those are probably are eligible businesses so get them the money right.

Caleb: Just one little bit of thing to put this all in context, remember we said 169 billion in eidl loans. Yes. Were made, just to give you an idea. And it was over 3 million loans that were made for Hurricanes Katrina, Rita and Wilma. The SBA approved just over 160,000 loans for a total of $11 billion.

Greg: Okay. Although, yeah, I mean, and again, because we're talking all 50 states, every one in all 50 states was declared to be in a disaster zone, whereas the the hurricanes are very are very localized.

Caleb: So concentrated.

Greg: Yes. Yeah. So it does it does make sense. But yeah, that is that does but also shows you the scope of what we were dealing with with the with coronavirus. So yeah.

Caleb: And the fact that the SBA really wasn't built to handle this kind of right scale.

Greg: Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay.

Caleb: All right. The report includes a section on inaccurate and incomplete data, which is very interesting. I read through it. Yeah. This includes a table of, quote, vague borrower names which noted 1148 loans made to borrowers named Uber and 342 called. And a and a right.

Greg: So for their name. That's for.

Caleb: Their name. For their.

Greg: Name.

Caleb: Yes. There were also nearly a quarter of a million approved loans that didn't have bank information at all. Fortunately, only 136 of those were dispersed.

Greg: Right. Which even there you kind of well, I mean, I guess they could cut a check and send it to an address. But yeah, it seemed it seemed like the whole thing was well, and again, maybe I'm thinking more of the PGP loan, but you had to apply for a PGP loan through your bank. So bank information was pretty much right there. But yeah, also we're, you know, out of 250,000, only 136 with no bank information, got the money. So yeah, it was a very, very small percentage.

Caleb: Okay. Shortly after all that, the report notes, quote, Management disagreed with the audit findings we report here. It went on to say, quote, Overall, management stated it disagreed with the findings because there were insufficient evidence that loans were approved and disbursed to ineligible businesses. But despite this, the agency is taking corrective actions to fully implement our recommendations.

Greg: So, Caleb, let's get into a couple of cases now, shall we?

Caleb: Absolutely.

Greg: Nice. In July 2020, a gentleman named Vineeth Odumakin of Dublin, Georgia, applied for an idle loan for an entertainment services business, a business that he had with ten employees and gross revenues of $235,000 a year. And on August 4th of 2020, the SBA deposited $85,000 into Vinoth's bank account. Then in January 2021, Vineeth spent $57,789 of that money on. And this is it's like hard to even say it out loud. He he spent over 50 almost $58,000 on a Pokemon trading card is what he what he did a business expense for an entertainment company that's a stretch maybe Pokemon any Pokemon Pokemon trading card for $58,000 that. No no what the math. No. And then you you might be asking which card. I'm not asking which card because it doesn't matter what card. You're $58,000. No, but you might be saying so which which Pokemon card was it? And I'll tell you which card it was. According to the New York Times, it was a first edition chars. Charizard.

Caleb: Charizard.

Greg: Charizard. Charizard.

Caleb: Charizard.

Greg: Chorizo. I think it's a chorizo. It's a chorizo. I think it's a spicy. A spicy Mexican sausage card. No, it's Charizard, which was released in 1999. And Charizard is this dragon like Pokemon creature. So the assistant US attorney in Georgia stated the painfully obvious to The New York Times, quote, I would say a Pokemon card is quite a novel scenario. Xavier Cunningham, an assistant US attorney in the Southern District of Georgia, said on Tuesday, quote, We don't inherently know what the market is for these cards. We had to hustle to find someone to give us a valuation for it. Yeah, and the valuation is going to be a lot less than 58,000 damn dollars. The best part of this article is the collector slash expert that they spoke to who totally slammed Vinoth's purchase. So again, this is from that article, Charlie Herlocker, a Pokemon card expert and dealer, which also just pause. I hate it that I mean I hate that someone is a Pokemon Pokemon card expert even more than I hate that there are people whose job is influencer or life coach. The fact that someone puts on their tax return under occupation Pokemon card expert that that just reflects a how old I am and B how how irritable I can be at times. But anyways, but.

Caleb: Please, Greg, please proceed because I'm enjoying I'm enjoying irritated.

Greg: Greg So so Mr.. Mr.. Herlocker this purported Pokemon card expert said that even if the cards purchase had been legitimate, it was an ill advised one on Mr. Odumakin's part. Quote He was buying at the peak of the market. Mr. Herlocker said it was a terrible short term purchase. Nobody was willing to pay more than him. Mr. Herlocker said. First edition base sets of the Charizard cards are especially coveted if they are in pristine condition, the highest grade that the card can get cards graded 9 or 9.5 or more readily available than those with a grade of ten like the one that Mr. Herlocker said he bought for $220,000. Still ridiculous. He noted that a card with that grade was sold for $336,000 on March 4th by Heritage Auction, a sum that included the buyer's premium. So again, he's saying that there's Charizard cards that are worth way more than even what Odom signs spent on his, But they were, I guess, better pristine, pristine. But yeah.

Caleb: They they.

Greg: Nobody no fingerprints. All I can think of is is comic book guy from the Simpsons now on this the but her her locker goes on to say this is the most desirable card in the hobby but the federal government could have a hard time right now. Recouping the amount that Mr. Odom's side paid for the card, according to Mr. Herlocker quote, If they hired me as a professional consultant, he said, my advice would be to hold out, which I think what he means is don't sell the car right now. Card right now. Wait for inflation and scarcity to catch up with the incredibly high price that Mr. Odom signed paid for his card.

Caleb: I have to say. But it probably sounded more like, hey, this is the most desirable card in the hobby. If they.

Greg: Hired me as a professional.

Caleb: Consultant.

Greg: My advice would be to hold.

Caleb: Out like, that's my best comic book guy. I don't know if that was good.

Greg: Most desirable card ever. No. You know, you may.

Caleb: Not have this.

Greg: Pristine.

Caleb: Charizard. No, you may not. It belongs to me. So that's.

Greg: Imagine that was solid. Yeah, nice. I'm impressed.

Caleb: But that is. But that, like, if Charlie Herlocker. If you're listening. Charlie, we're sorry, okay? You have a very strange job, but you have to admit.

Greg: You're a real life comic book guy.

Caleb: You might be a comic book guy.

Greg: You absolutely are a real life comic book guy. But also, think about this from the other perspective. Poor Vanth Odom sign. I mean, he was the perpetrator, but he gets some sympathy from me, from us, because not only did he spend his idle loot in one of the nerdiest ways possible, he then got roasted by the nerdiest guy, possible in The New York Times in front of the whole world. Yeah. So you you did an idiot thing. And we're destroyed by the by the person who got bullied by everyone in middle school. So. Yep. It's just which I guess is a little bit of poetic justice. So to round out the story in October 2021, Vanth Odom sign pled guilty to one count of wire fraud. He was sentenced to 36 months in prison and also ordered to pay $85,000 in restitution. I believe that I looked into this. He was also so his 85,000 in restitution, plus a $10,000 fine on top of that. And according to federal prison records, he's serving his time in Atlanta M and is scheduled to be released in February 2024. So you're almost done there. Vanth Just. Hold on.

Caleb: Greg, when I say the state of Florida, what comes to mind for you?

Greg: The things that come to mind to me are don't say gay, illegal drag shows and alligators riding jet skis while smoking meth. Those are the those are kind of the three top ones.

Caleb: Yeah. And Mickey Mouse.

Greg: Okay.

Caleb: Or not.

Greg: If you said Orlando for sure, but just Florida in general. Yeah, I don't know.

Caleb: Florida's. So here's the point. Florida has kind of a reputation.

Greg: What?

Caleb: Yeah. Yeah, there's. There's a reason that I guess Florida, man. Florida man. Yeah. Has has its own Wikipedia page. Yep. It's in the show notes. Very thorough. Researcher. Yeah.

Greg: Not surprising to me at all.

Caleb: That Wikipedia page says that Florida man originated as an internet meme in 2013. However, I found an Onion article from 2007 entitled quote, Florida Man Beats Out Heart Disease as Nation's Number one Killer. And I'm pretty sure that's where the legendary scourge of Florida man really began.

Greg: I'll tell you, I so I'm a I'm a religious watcher of The Daily Show and they had a wonderful segment about the about Florida man and and why Florida man is the thing. And apparently it all relates back to Florida having somewhat unique laws in terms of being able to of how the courts can publicize the crimes of the people in their state. So there's something about just a little bit more transparency or earlier transparency of what criminals did in Florida than elsewhere. That at least contributes to the the myth of the Florida man.

Caleb: Yes. And just a little bit more fun context. And part of the research I did, I read something that said Florida is currently, uh, we're recording this in 2023, is the third most populous state in the country. Okay.

Greg: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, the.

Caleb: Majority of the people currently living in Florida have moved there in the last basically in the last 75 years. So like the population boom in Florida over the last 6 or 7 decades has been like bananas. Yeah. And so like, you have all these people moving to this place. It has these kind of Florida is known for, like you say, it has these weird laws and kind of kind of libertine attitudes in certain parts of the state. And so like it is, it's it's kind of a madhouse down there. And so that's that that also kind of plays into it. Yep. Anyway, our next story fits in perfectly and as as, as, as. And it concerns Joseph Harding of Williston, Florida. And Williston is about 30 minutes south of Gainesville, which is in north central Florida. If you care to be kind of geographically oriented. Yeah. Now. We always make this kind of caveat. Our geography is for shit, particularly Texas geography. So just if you care to verify.

Greg: Look it up for.

Caleb: Yourself. Yeah, our feelings aren't going to be hurt. But that's where this is going on. Not at all.

Greg: Joe. It's not a geography podcast, but it's weird that geography plays its way into every single podcast. Seems to.

Caleb: Yeah, it seems to. Anyway, Joe Joe Hardin studied construction management at the College of Central Florida and at Florida International University, although he did not earn a degree. No judgment. No judgment.

Greg: Oh, no. Oh, no.

Caleb: Judgment. Judgment. No judgment. Judgment. Judgment. I guess. He worked as a project manager in construction and founded a landscaping company in 2018. Okay.

Greg: Okay.

Caleb: In 2020, Joe Harding of Williston, Florida, won a seat in the Florida House of Representatives on a conservative message representing the 22nd District. As a Republican.

Greg: Yeah, and again, just with Florida's reputation, a particularly conservative message in Florida just seems like he's he's got to be like a you know, what was it the Westboro Baptist? Was he was he on the board of West? That's what that's like. What comes to mind with someone in Florida claiming a particularly conservative message?

Caleb: Yeah, I think a Florida conservative message will will probably resonate with those Westboro Baptist Looney Tunes. But those those particular Looney Tunes are they're Kansas. They're in Kansas. Oh, they're in Kansas. They are in Kansas.

Greg: Okay. Thought they were in Florida. Again. Mean probably travel because they travel.

Caleb: Well, it might.

Greg: Just be because of Florida's reputation. I go, they're crazy. They're from Florida. Yeah. So yeah.

Caleb: See reputation. That's exactly. Anyway, Joe quickly made a name for himself, not only in Florida, not just in Florida politics, but nationally. And I'm going to tell you why. In 2021, he introduced the Parental Rights in Education bill, which was commonly referred to in the media as the Don't Say gay bill.

Greg: Ah, that was one of my three that I thought of with Florida. I win. Ding, ding, ding, ding. Like I just won. Family Feud. Thank you. Right. It's an honor.

Caleb: So for those not familiar, there was a provision in this legislation that gained a lot of attention because it prohibited Florida teachers from discussing LGBTQ related topics in kindergarten through third grade, among other provisions that targeted LGBTQ children and their families. So.

Greg: So this guy was the mastermind of all of that?

Caleb: Yes, he was. He was the original sponsor of the bill in 2022. Harding even introduced an amendment to that bill that would out gay kids to their parents within six weeks of the schools learning that the child was not heterosexual. So yeah, yeah, I don't have much to say.

Greg: Yeah, that's. Yeah.

Caleb: Both the bill, the original bill and this amendment got a lot of national attention. National attention, most of it negative, as you well would hopefully imagine. Right. Um, as.

Greg: You can feel feel from the two hosts of this podcast. Yeah.

Caleb: Um, the the for what it's worth, the outing amendment was eventually withdrawn, so.

Greg: Which is nice to hear. I actually did not know that I heard about the outing part of it. I did not hear that that was withdrawn. So that's actually some good news in my opinion.

Caleb: Yeah. They, they managed to yank that bit nice. Anyway, so that's a bit about Joe Harding. Uh, look, let's be honest here. He's a top seller at the Jerk store. Yeah, yeah. Seriously, take a look at this guy if you got a chance. There's plenty of stuff in the show notes. I'm pretty sure he's the original prototype for the 1980s jock villain.

Greg: Absolutely. He's.

Caleb: He's. He's a scowling five head in some of those pictures. Yeah.

Greg: Yeah.

Caleb: He looks like he was voted most likely to drive angry in high school. Right.

Greg: Like he he has. He has a resting Second Amendment face.

Caleb: Yeah. Yeah. If you Google, who should women avoid at the bar? At all costs. His photo comes up, he.

Greg: Looks like he's cosplaying someone who was rejected from military enlistment.

Caleb: This guy decided to use his political position to join a stupid culture war against queer folks instead of doing anything remotely useful whatsoever. Right. So here we are.

Greg: Now here we go.

Caleb: Despite this widespread national backlash, the original bill passed both the Republican controlled Florida House and Senate and was signed into law by Florida Governor Meatball. Sorry. Bye. It was signed into law by Florida Governor Ron DeSantis in March 2020. Since we discussed tornadoes at the top of the show, I'll just make one note that after this bill was signed into law, a tornado damaged Joe Hardin's house in Ocala, Florida. And as you might expect, people took that as a sign. All right. Have we I think we've been enjoying ourselves a little too much, possibly. Anyway, despite the tornado hitting Joe Hardin's house, which for what it's worth, he wasn't home, but his family was. And, you know.

Greg: His family is.

Caleb: Okay. Everybody's fine. Okay. He's fine. He's got young kids. The kids are fine. So, you know. Good, good. But there is a actually a much more satisfying silver lining to this story. Are you ready? Yes. Yes. Okay. That silver lining is that on December 7th, 2022, a federal grand jury returned a six count indictment against Joe Hardin for wire fraud, money laundering, and making false statements to the Small Business Administration related to an economic injury disaster loan. Nice. God.

Greg: Wait for the tornadoes specifically.

Caleb: No, no, no. No. No. No, no. Okay. No. Well, I'll get into it. The Department of Justice press release stated that between December 1st, 2020 and March 1st, 2021, Harding committed two acts of wire fraud by participating in a scheme to defraud the Small Business Administration and for obtaining coronavirus related small business loans by a means of materially false and fraudulent pretenses, representations and promises, and for the purpose of executing such scheme, caused wire communications to be transmitted in interstate commerce. Okay.

Greg: Wire fraud.

Caleb: Wire fraud, our favorite. The indictment also alleged that he, quote, made and caused to be made false and fraudulent SBA economic injury, disaster loan applications and made false representations in supporting loan documentation in the names of dormant business entities submitted to the SBA. The indictment further alleges that Harding obtained fraudulently created bank statements for one of the dormant business entities which were used as supporting documentation for one of his fraudulent eidl loan applications. By this conduct, the indictment alleges that Harding fraudulently obtained and obtained and attempted to obtain more than $150,000 in funds from the SBA to which he was not entitled.

Greg: Nice. So he went he went hard in the paint on this by making fake, fake, fake fake bank statements. Yeah, that's big time. Yeah. So, yeah.

Caleb: A little bit more detail from a New York Times story. Harding applied for Idol for two entities, one called VAC Shack. I don't know. And two Harding Farms. Right. He claimed that.

Greg: They were VAC Shack specializes in in Dyson vacuums. It's really the one stop shop if you need any kind of suction device.

Caleb: Oh, and in Florida. That sounds about right. Right. He claimed that they were active businesses in 2019 and 2020 with about 800,000in revenue and six employees between them. But the businesses had not in fact, been active since 2017. He had only attempted to reinstate them in the days leading up to his applications for the loans. So, yeah. That's not going to work, pal. No, these as. As for those phony bank statements he knowingly obtained, fraudulently created bank statements for September and October 22nd, 2020 for the Harding Farms business. Right at the time of the indictment, at the at the time of the indictment, Harding said, quote, I want the public and my constituents to know that I fully repaid the loan and cooperated with the investigators as requested, but they had to request Joe. Right, Right, exactly. They had to request. So here's here's one of my favorite parts of this story. As I said earlier, he was indicted on December 7th, 2022. Okay. Uh huh. And then he resigned from his seat in the Florida House on December 8th, 2022.

Greg: So wait, how how long apart was that?

Caleb: The next.

Greg: Day. That's one day. Yeah, that's one day.

Caleb: Exactly. One day. But this is the part I love. According to the DOJ press release, he began his scheme on December 1st, 2020. Okay. He was elected to the Florida House of Representatives on November 3rd, 2020. Okay, so he waited 28 days before he decided to become a corrupt politician.

Greg: That's four weeks. Four weeks in.

Caleb: Really held out.

Greg: Power corrupts in in one lunar month.

Caleb: Yeah. One one cycle of the moon to to abuse the before he abused the power of his office.

Greg: Right.

Caleb: Anyway, one last thing again, this story is full of them. Joe's brother in law, guy by the name of Patrick Parker Walsh, also of Williston, Florida, also had a little run in with Covid 19 relief. No kidding. Relief aid fraud. Yep. Patrick Parker Walsh. Which. Yeah, I'm going to say all three names every time, right? Patrick Parker Walsh was the CEO of Airsign Airship Group, which is a blimp company.

Greg: Okay.

Caleb: Yep, a blimp company.

Greg: All right.

Caleb: Those things come from somewhere.

Greg: Apparently from Airsign Airship group.

Caleb: Anyway, Patrick Parker Walsh submitted 16 falsified paycheck protection program applications for nearly $12 million. He obtained only about five, for what it's worth. He also submitted a.

Greg: Total only $5 million of ill gotten peop less than half money. Yeah. Geez. Really?

Caleb: Yeah. He also submitted a total of 18 fraudulent applications to the SBA for the idol, which we've been talking about for 2.8 million that were fully approved and dispersed. Okay. So we got about 8 million, almost 8 million in total. Patrick Parker, Walsh's lawyer, claimed that he took the loans out to save his business and also added, quote, his business skills are not the greatest. He took out high interest loans and made some dumb choices, end of quote, which for a defense attorney, that is refreshingly honest.

Greg: Right. Right. I wonder how that's part of like the defense like like strategy is like you can't don't this guy is so stupid. I mean, come on. Of course, he's not going to understand what the paycheck protection program is or the Idol. I mean, it's it's complicated. Right? And my my, Your Honor, he reads it at a seventh grade level at best. How is he supposed to know what the fuck these are all about? I rest my case.

Caleb: Oh, Lionel Hutz, you know.

Greg: Since we're.

Caleb: Since we're dropping Simpsons characters. Exactly. Apparently. Yeah. Anyway, Patrick Parker Walsh pled guilty and was sentenced to 66 months in federal prison in January 2023. But I haven't forgotten about Joe. Joe Harding. Joe Harding On March 21st, 2023, pled guilty to wire fraud, money laundering and making false statements. He faces a maximum of 35 years in prison. I will be floored if he actually gets that. As of this recording, he is scheduled for sentencing on July 25th, 2023. So we'll see. So, Greg did we learn anything?

Greg: Caleb Unfortunately, what I'm learning is I'm getting a map with all these podcasts we do about pandemic era frauds. What I'm it's a master class in how to defraud the federal government and that that actually kind of makes that kind of bums me out. Like like legitimately does because again and we've talked about this in other podcasts where I remember in the the craziness and just the anxiety of the pandemic while it was happening and being an accountant and going, how do I comply with all these constantly changing rules? And you're just you're just going for compliance and you go, okay, there's a whole nother set of people out there that it seems like they're just waiting for some horrible thing to happen to the country or to their area. And they're just ready to just like slide in and take advantage of it to to their own, you know, for, again, for their own ill gotten gain. Yep. And and and the master class seems like it's this where I mean the I guess the steps are. Yeah. Wait for a massive disaster and then because what we're looking at is we're looking at the people who got caught. But one of the things that's apparent to me as we dig through the numbers and we dig through what's happening, we look at the inspector general reports and things like that is we go, there's a whole lot of we're looking at the people that got caught. There are a ton of people that did not get caught. And so, so so again, the game plan, wait for that natural disaster and then just commit significantly less fraud than what's possible. And if you do that, you good. You just got some free money, buckaroo.

Caleb: You might be able to afford a condo on the big island in Hawaii.

Greg: Uh. Jesus, that. Please, Caleb, don't insinuate that that was from my loans. And it was not at all. Jeez. Uh, so. So, so basically, I'm saying that that that I guess if you look at the, the pandemic era fraud, kind of the subset of our podcast that focus on those, it really does kind of our podcast bums me out from that perspective. Yeah, it does. But, but, but again, I mean, I don't want to just have like this negative view on the world that everybody out there is a bad person. There's also a lot of just stupid people, bad people and stupid people. Here's here's what I mean by that. With this with this podcast specifically, we're talking about the Eidl loans. One of the things that I that I remember that I verified in preparation for this podcast is that eidl loans, they they did not have there was no possibility of forgiveness for idle loans. It's it's legitimately just a loan. You have to just pay back this money and I generous terms.

Caleb: Generous terms for what it's worth.

Greg: Very generous terms because it's a very low interest rate. The maximum interest rate that a eidl loan can have is 4%, which is a great interest rate, especially at the time of this recording. It's a screaming interest rate. And when we look back, I even look back at at the loans during the pandemic. And I want to say that none of those loans even hit 4%. They were more like 3.75. And I think for some, maybe for nonprofits, they were 2.75, something like that. It was very, very great loans, like I mentioned before, those the Eidl loans they had, it was about 12 months after they dispersed the funds when you actually had to start repaying the funds. And it's a 30 year term on those loans. So it's a very long, you know, so your payments are going to be pretty, pretty small just because of the term of the loan, not to mention the very favorable interest rate. But that said, it's still a loan. Okay. There's the there's the $10,000 part. That's a grant that doesn't have to be repaid. But but even like you said, if you really look at it, the average amount was more like three, 3500 bucks rather than $10,000.

Greg: So the vast majority of this eidl stuff was just loans that you had to repay. So what we're talking about with Eidl fraud is we're talking about loan fraud. And loan fraud is arguably one of the stupidest kinds of fraud because you're not getting money, you're just getting a fucking loan that you have to repay. And which again, goes back to because because I made sure to put a put like underscore when we were talking about my guy, the Nath Odom sign, because his restitution was $85,000, his loan was $85,000, his restitution equaled his loan, which basically meant, hey, you know, that loan we gave you, you got to pay it back. Well, no shit. That's what a fucking loan is. So justice served. I don't know. Which is why it was very important to me to see that they also fined him $10,000 on top of that, because otherwise there's no punishment there. He just got 85,000 bucks that maybe he wasn't supposed to have the right credit to receive that. And he used it on a stupid Charizard card. But but regardless.

Caleb: He did get roasted by comic comic book guy.

Greg: And he did, which is justice. As we said before, there's a little bit of justice there. But even with that, you go, okay, you got to repay $85,000 of restitution. But we know enough about how restitution works to know that the feds confiscated his Charizard card and whatever proceeds they got from that, clearly it wasn't going to be the $58,000 that that knucklehead paid for it, but they got something for it. And that would go against the restitution that he had to repay to the government. So so so, again, just the other thing that we're learning is if you're going to commit fraud, don't commit loan fraud. It's the stupidest kind of fraud. Is that what we're trying to promote on the podcast is what kinds of fraud are the best kinds of fraud to perpetrate and are we trying to teach people how to defraud the federal government and get away with it? No, we're not. But but which is why I'm so bummed out by these podcasts, because that's all that it seems like I'm learning from these kind of frauds.

Caleb: I, um. I have. I don't know if I have anything to add other than it's. I mean, we've, we've talked about it in several episodes, which is the government's between a rock and a hard place. It either either helps its citizens or it it makes perfect the enemy of the just fine and and people and more people suffer and yeah they they just kind of like they hope that they that the law enforcement will catch enough bad guys that they can get their names in the paper just enough you know. Right.

Greg: But or at least so that I guess the way I'd spin that is that there'd be enough press of people getting in trouble for abusing it, that it might make people pause before they engage in the similar type of fraud in a future disaster.

Caleb: Yeah. Mean because I have to say, you know, it's funny. I think we mentioned it. I think it was in the second episode, which is episode 34, I believe. And like in that episode and even in this one, the sentences that were getting handed down to these people kind of long. Yeah, like they are. Yeah, yeah. That's. There's a couple there was, there was one in the episode where the guy got like 11 years.

Greg: Yeah. The fact that Joe Hardin could get 35 years, I mean, like you said, he's not going to get anywhere near he's not going to get that. Even if he got a quarter of that, that's that's pretty long time, especially with him saying he paid back the loan, right? That's right. So that. Yeah, I hear that in.

Caleb: His brother in law here who kind of went kind of went kind of went for it. Yeah. He got 66 months. I mean, you know, he he won't he probably won't serve the whole sentence. Is that something else we've learned over the course of doing this podcast is, you know, you can chip away at those things. But still, even like if he serves, if he serves half of it. Not great. I mean, I don't want to I personally don't want to give up three years of my life to like, no be in a minimum security prison.

Greg: Right. But it's interesting what you said, because some of doing this podcast, I've learned so much. Do you remember when we interviewed Nathan Mueller? Yeah, the the AIG fraudster. And he was telling us about the whole ING, the whole ING, uh, uh, thing. He, he was telling us how the restitution process worked and he was like, you there's a, there's a maximum percentage that they can garnish from your wages. They can't take everything because you still got to be able to live as a member of society. And then there's a specific date after which if you haven't repaid your restitution, you're just off the hook. So again, when you look at my guy, Vernon Odom sign and you think of that, you go, oh, well, having to pay restitution, he might not actually have to pay back his entire loan, which so it's almost like just make him just keep the terms of the loan. And that's a better punishment than the actual punishment that he received from doing the crime. Right. And yeah, anyways, it's Nathan Mueller.

Caleb: Nathan Mueller Episode 28.

Greg: It's a that's a great one if you haven't listened to that one. It is. It's fantastic.

Caleb: Anyway.

Greg: Well, that's it for this episode. And remember, don't spend your ill gotten gain on nerd loot unless you have unimpeachable nerd credentials.

Caleb: And also remember to think twice about passing anti-lgbtq legislation because if you do, they're going to drop a tornado on your house.

Greg: Right on your living room. If you want to drop us a line to communicate your thoughts about this podcast, please send it. We'd love to hear from you. And so send us an email at Oh, my Fraud at Earmarks dot com. We love getting those. And if you've got a case that you know of, we get great tips on some amazing cases that we've done on the podcast. So if you've got a favorite fraud, let us know what that is too. We'd love to, to put it in our list of, of future episodes. Caleb If people want to find you specifically out there in the Internet, where can they get Ahold of you?

Caleb: I'm on Twitter at C Newquist and LinkedIn Backslash. Caleb Newquist. Greg, are you on the internet?

Greg: I am, but it seems like less and less nowadays. Don't even try to engage me on Twitter because I haven't been on there in months. But I do go on LinkedIn much more recently and I'm just backslash. Greg Kite I'm Greg Kite, CPA. Specifically, if you're looking for me, find the bald guy with glasses and a beard and that's me.

Caleb: Oh my Fraud is written by Greg Kite and myself. Our producer is Zach Frank. If you like the show, leave a rating, Leave us a review. Share. Or with a friend. All of those things help people find the show and we want people to find the show. You want people to find the show so you can talk about you can talk about it with those people and.

Greg: Different people who write podcasts. They love our show and they're always like, I can't believe these guys only have 47 reviews or whatever we have. So help us become a more legitimate podcast by leaving us a review. You got it's a free podcast. You just got free for it. You got a second to go do that for us. It's not busy season. Come on, give us a hand.

Caleb: And while you're at it, subscribe on Apple or Spotify or wherever you get podcasts. And as Greg mentioned, if you're an accountant and you need CPA, if you listen on earmark, yeah, you can get CPA. So a little bonus for the accountants out there.

Greg: I have got so much CPA and I love it so hard for. Thank you earmark for helping me maintain my CPA license.

Caleb: Cpa license, CPA license. Join us. Join us next time for more about swindlers and scams from stories that will make you say, Oh my.

Greg: Oh my. Fraud.