Oh My Fraud

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Earmark CPE: If you'd like to earn CPE credit for listening to this episode, visit earmark Cpcomm. Download the app. Take a short quiz and get your CPE certificate. Continuing education has never been so easy. And now on to the episode.

Greg Kyte: Hello and welcome to Oh My Fraud, a true crime podcast where most of the victims live and sometimes our podcast is live. I'm Greg Kyte and.

Caleb Newquist: I'm Caleb [00:00:30] Newquist.

Greg Kyte: Uh, today. Caleb. Very exciting. Today we get to we get to share a recorded episode that we recorded live for more North America's member appreciation event, Fraud in Focus. Uh, more North America is an association of accounting and consulting firms. But it's not just any association of accounting and consulting firms. It's a member of More Global, which is the 11th largest accounting network in the world.

Caleb Newquist: Man in the world.

Greg Kyte: In the whole [00:01:00] damn world.

Caleb Newquist: Man, that's that's pretty big. Greg.

Greg Kyte: That's a lot. There's a lot of world. And they're the 11th largest.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, yeah, that's not bad. Now, just to be clear, we are taking some liberties by calling this a live podcast. We presented it live, but it was also over zoom. So we didn't have like a live studio audience or anything. And so you won't hear laughing and you won't hear booing and you won't hear, uh, heckling. Uh, we missed all that.

Greg Kyte: We heckled each other.

Caleb Newquist: We heckled each other. [00:01:30] But no.

Greg Kyte: No audience.

Caleb Newquist: Heckling. Right, right. No audience heckling. But anyway, um, that that that's kind of the context around the liveness of it. Right.

Greg Kyte: And also I, I always think it's funny when something's said to be recorded live because it's still a recording. Yeah. So it was recorded. And if something's recorded, then it's not live. Right. So. So it's more like like think of it like like Prince's live album, not his studio. Uh, Purple Rain [00:02:00] album. That's that's that's basically the difference that we've got, right?

Caleb Newquist: But in any case, uh, regardless of the status of the liveness of the podcast, um, if your firm is looking for a fun and engaging live or not live presentation on fraud or ethics, uh, we can do that. So, uh, send us an email at my fraud at earmarks e.com for pricing and availability.

Greg Kyte: And with that, Caleb, let's, uh, allow our listeners to enjoy a very [00:02:30] fun presentation that we gave live to more North America. So our story today does take place in Clark County, Indiana, and it begins in 2014. Clark County, Indiana, as you can see from this map, sits immediately north of Louisville, Kentucky, which, Caleb, you always like to make sure that we designate our states that aren't states, but are rather Commonwealth. [00:03:00] Right.

Caleb Newquist: And Kentucky is a commonwealth.

Greg Kyte: And you do that just to just to infuriate me because I don't know the difference. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Greg doesn't recognize Greg doesn't recognize Commonwealth's. He only recognizes states state.

Greg Kyte: And to me, they're all states. So yeah, the 50 nifty United States. I learned that song as a kid and it stuck. So anyways, uh, Clark County, Indiana sits just across the Ohio River from Louisville, Kentucky. Uh, and also, like I said, our story begins in 2014. And if you don't remember, 2014, the top song, uh, was Happy [00:03:30] by Pharrell Williams, which I think is a great song because so many people absolutely hate that song. Uh, and a song, a song titled happy that brings so much unhappiness to me. That's just there's something delightful about that.

Caleb Newquist: There's something very delightful about that. Yeah, I agree.

Greg Kyte: Also, back in 2014, the top movie of 2014 was Guardians of the Galaxy, featuring a recently hulked up Chris Pratt. Most people don't remember pre Guardians Chris Pratt. He was a little bit doughy and I liked it. And [00:04:00] I loved him.

Caleb Newquist: I loved doughy Chris Pratt too on Parks and Rec. That was my favorite Chris Pratt yeah yeah. Same.

Greg Kyte: Yep. And back in 2014 we were all worried about the Ebola virus and blissfully unaware of the coronavirus. Uh, 2014 was also when a then 42 year old fella named Jamie Noel won his first election to become the sheriff of Clark County, Indiana. Uh, his campaign was helped by none other than Mike pence. Does that name ring a bell to [00:04:30] anyone, Mike Pence, anyone? Nope. It's been too long. Not anymore. Look it up. Google him. Uh, Jamie Noel not only won his race for sheriff in 2014, he was also reelected to the position in 2018. And now is when we're going to actually reveal how much a county sheriff makes Jamie Knoll. By 2022, he was making $169,000 a year. Is [00:05:00] what he was making, which. And and from the research, I wasn't able to get a starting salary for him. But from the research I did, it looks like he was probably around $100,000 now. Caleb. Yes. The population, if I'm remembering right from the research, the population of Clark County, Indiana, is less than 200,000 people. So, uh, and also when I, when I was looking like I just did, I asked, I think I asked ChatGPT to tell me what the ranges were for, uh, [00:05:30] for sheriff's, uh, county sheriffs. And I think ChatGPT probably just gave me some averages from around the country. And 169,000, uh, was well above, I think ChatGPT said, uh, 115 is what most sheriffs were making in 2022. So he was. So he's doing pretty well as a sheriff. But but and also just to put this in context, both in the time and the place, uh, his salary was a little bit more than twice the median [00:06:00] household income in Indiana in 2022. Uh, so the let's see. Yeah. So so I have the date of 2023. Median household income in Indiana was about $77,000. So he was more than double that. So so if we're if we're talking about Jamie's financial position, he's doing pretty good. He's not doing.

Caleb Newquist: Fine.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, he's doing fine. That's a great that's a great salary to have. He's not super rich, but he's doing fine. Uh, some other [00:06:30] interesting things about, uh, Jamie Knoll is. Before becoming Clark County sheriff, he served as an Indiana state trooper for 22 years. Makes sense if you're a trooper and have ambition, Sheriff, something you're going to shoot for after a long tenure as a trooper. And before that, Jamie Noel. Right out of college, he worked on a fire crew, which is important to know because while he was sheriff, he was also simultaneously serving as the head of the Utica County. No, sorry, Utica [00:07:00] Township Volunteer Firefighters association. Um, and now, this might be surprising to you out there, but the Utica Township Volunteer Firefighters Association is a volunteer firefighters association. Huh. And what? And as. Yeah. And as such, it relies heavily on volunteers.

Caleb Newquist: Okay.

Greg Kyte: But also in terms of its in terms of its just because its its staff is volunteer, but they still have to have real [00:07:30] fire equipment. And so it relies heavily on community support and fundraising to be able to purchase and maintain the equipment, not exclusively on fundraising and community support, but heavily on community support and fundraising to to purchase and maintain equipment. Another interesting fact about Jamie Knoll is that he had a third job as a TV star. He was prominently featured in season one of the show 60 Days In on A&E. You know that show that no one's ever heard of or [00:08:00] watched before now?

Caleb Newquist: I had not heard about it. I did not I was not familiar with the show prior to doing the research for this podcast, and I do see someone in the comments saying that they did watch it. So maybe everybody, maybe that person already knows how this story is going to end, but nevertheless, they certainly know how 60 days in goes.

Greg Kyte: Right? So so basically what happened is when Jamie became sheriff, he inherited a huge problem at the Clark County Jail, specifically violence and drugs among [00:08:30] the inmates and corruption among the correctional officers. And in the show, they said that people were getting arrested on purpose because it was easier and cheaper to get drugs in jail than it was to get drugs on the street. And they also suspected, which makes perfect sense to me that the drugs were getting in, at least in part, or possibly in large part through jail employees, through the correctional officers themselves.

Caleb Newquist: Sounds like we got a lot of 60 days in viewers on. Oh, on [00:09:00] the on the pod today Greg in the audience.

Greg Kyte: Here we I mean, if we shouldn't waste too much time on this but we both watched the some episodes.

Caleb Newquist: I watched. I've watched two and a half episodes and I watched three.

Greg Kyte: I watched three and a half episodes the whole time I was going, I don't need to watch any more than the first half of the first episode to get what I need for the podcast, but I watched three and a half episodes, and the whole time I was like going, I need to stop watching this. This is this is not good television. But I couldn't [00:09:30] do it. I couldn't extricate myself for three and a half episodes in, and then I had to go to the bathroom and I was like, thank goodness I can actually stop watching this show. So I turned it off and I haven't haven't looked back. Caleb.

Caleb Newquist: As you may or may not be aware, there are two kinds of sheriffs. As we just as our polling question just illuminated for us, appointed and elected. Many people argue that all sheriffs should be appointed because elected sheriffs generally have far less accountability. Oh, what a surprise. [00:10:00] That's kind of how I feel. So there's less oversight for those elected sheriffs, uh, because they were given their job by voters and they don't generally lose their jobs unless they're voted out. And I don't know about you, but I don't follow my sheriffs races closely. Greg, do you follow your sheriffs race closely?

Greg Kyte: Listen, I am ashamed at how little research I do of the down ballot options on my ballots. I do, I tell you what, [00:10:30] I give it my best shot. I will at least Google everyone on there to see. But. But sometimes. But you know it's it's. Well yeah. So so the the short answer is no, I don't pay attention to it. Okay, okay. The longer answer is I do enough to not feel guilty for casting a vote when I do. Uh, but the the nice addendum to that is on principle, I never vote for anyone who's running unelected or unopposed. Unopposed. If you're if it's just one [00:11:00] person running for county coroner, they're not getting Greg Kite's vote.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Especially if they're not a doctor.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Especially if they're not a doctor. But anyways. Anyway, are you. Are you the same? Wait, are you the same way? Do you vote? Do you do you cast a vote for people who are running unopposed?

Caleb Newquist: I believe I, I think it's a mix. It depends on if I like the person's name or not.

Greg Kyte: Oh, is that it?

Caleb Newquist: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I just get a sense of the name. Think about someone who I've known in my past that has a similar name. And I'm like, did I like that person [00:11:30] or did I not like that person? Gotcha. And that's how I make it. That's how I make the judgment call when people are running unopposed.

Greg Kyte: Right. So if someone's running. Running unopposed. But their name is Max powers, or, uh, Biff Malibu. You're like, that's a that's an awesome name.

Caleb Newquist: Or Greg Smight. If there's a Greg Smight on my ballot, I might. And I do like the word smite. If that's your last name, then congrats to you. You've got a great last name, right?

Greg Kyte: Exactly. Anyway.

Caleb Newquist: Kerry. Carrying on, moving on. Um, the [00:12:00] problem, as we have just kind of discussed, is that most people in general don't know what sheriffs do. They're low information voters. Right. Um, I think most of us, Greg, I certainly include myself in this, but, um, I think of sheriffs as as doing cop stuff. Um, yeah. And I don't really think about the specifics too much. Um, unless I have an interaction with a sheriff. Uh, we don't really. We don't really know how they do their job. We don't have a good sense of how [00:12:30] they do their jobs well.

Greg Kyte: And and whenever, whenever I have an interaction with law enforcement, my assumption is whatever you're doing is your job. I don't ever. I'm never like, are you sure you can help me with my flat tire on the side of the road? I, I it's always like, cool. You're here. Yeah. I'll let you do your job.

Caleb Newquist: Protect and protect and serve. Greg. Right.

Greg Kyte: Exactly, precisely. Okay.

Caleb Newquist: So, anyway, so remember, we're in Indiana, and you can't. So. And [00:13:00] then the law in Indiana says you cannot vote while you're incarcerated for a misdemeanor. And if you're convicted of a felony, you lose your right to vote until you have fully completed your sentence, whatever that might be. So arguably, the people who actually have the most interaction with sheriffs performing their duties up close, and who might be most motivated to vote against an incumbent, they might actually not be able to vote at all. Exactly.

Greg Kyte: All right.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so, uh, [00:13:30] what does a sheriff do?

Greg Kyte: I don't know, Caleb. What does a sheriff do?

Caleb Newquist: I'm so. I'm so glad that you asked. Greg. Here is a non-exhaustive list of things that sheriffs frequently do. Okay. The county sheriff leads the county sheriff's office and oversees the deputies. So deputies are not elected. Right? Deputies are hired. It's basically a it's a job. Yeah, I that seems that seems like.

Greg Kyte: A that seems like a gimme. That's like.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, right. Yeah. Right. Right. Uh, deputies patrol the county to prevent [00:14:00] crime and respond to incidents. Deputies also investigate crimes, enforce traffic laws, respond to accidents. Uh, Sheriff manages the county jail. Sheriff. The sheriff's office organizes outreach programs to educate the public about safety and build community trust.

Greg Kyte: Oh, and to build trust. Is that part of their job?

Caleb Newquist: This is what you put in the script, Greg, I honestly, I'm I'm willing I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Greg Kyte: Nice. I'm trying to give a little theatrics, and you just go. You wrote the damn script. [00:14:30] I'm just reading the words that you put in my mouth. Stop trying to be cute. Okay, cool. Let's keep going.

Caleb Newquist: The sheriff. The sheriff's office also delivers summonses, subpoenas, lawsuits. Right. And I. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Interesting to note that the plural of summons is summonses. It's a it's a weird one.

Caleb Newquist: I like it very much, though. I like it very much. Yeah. Um, they also handle evictions and property repossessions ordered by the court. And which is interesting because I was I was as I was going through the script, I thought, well, [00:15:00] everything I know about repossessions I learned from Repo Man, the 1984 film starring Emilio Estevez. Um, and but which is, I have to admit, not much. So. Um, so I guess, you know, if there's if repossessions need to be done. A sheriff, I guess, handles those. Yeah. Um.

Greg Kyte: Probably certain types of repossessions, I would assume. Yeah. Probably not. Probably not. All of them. I bet you a Subaru North America is probably handling their own repossessions if I if I fall [00:15:30] behind on my Crosstrek payments.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, that's probably right. Yeah. Yeah. And finally, um, of course, uh, subsequent to repossessions, uh, the sheriffs also sell the property that was seized, um, or repossessed. So, uh, so, yeah, I don't know that that list is, is that's, that's a lot of cop stuff. Right. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. It it is. Yeah. I think all of that stuff neatly falls under the overarching. But but but honestly, Caleb, was there anything in that list that you're like, oh, I didn't realize that that was part of the [00:16:00] part of the job. I, I, we watched 60 days in and that let me know that managing the county jail was under the sheriff. I would have assumed that that was separate from the sheriff's office.

Caleb Newquist: So as I kind of I was I kind of glossed over my experience with sheriffs. Uh, I have an uncle. I have an uncle who was a sheriff's deputy. So he wasn't the sheriff, but he was a deputy, and he, uh, a good over a good portion of his career as a deputy, he oversaw the jail. [00:16:30] Okay. County jail. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Gotcha.

Caleb Newquist: A small county in Nebraska.

Greg Kyte: Right. Also, have you ever received a summons, a subpoena or a notification of a lawsuit? Like, were you ever served papers?

Caleb Newquist: I cannot think of a time that I have been served, and I'm. This is where someone is going to knock on wood for me. But, uh, no, I cannot recall a time where I've been served. Have you been served, Greg?

Greg Kyte: I have, and but I but I'm. I'm confident [00:17:00] it was not a sheriff who did it. This this guy? Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Citizens can do it. Yeah. Okay. They can be appointed like someone can. Someone can designate you to serve someone else.

Greg Kyte: Okay. Yeah. But maybe if they're worried about someone being dangerous or something, then it's like, oh, a sheriff needs to do this. So that makes that makes sense to me. So. But yeah. But yeah, the guy, the the guy who served me, uh, he was. So my day job, I work for a group of medical office buildings. I part of my job is obviously the accounting side of stuff, but I also do some of the management [00:17:30] for the buildings, and I'm pretty sure this guy just looked sketchy and he wouldn't leave the lobby. So I went out to be like, hey, what are you doing, bud? And he was like, I'm serving you papers. So. So, uh, that was, uh. Yeah. Not. Wow. But, yeah, he. If he was wearing a big deputy's hat, I would have. Yeah, I would have.

Caleb Newquist: Totally different encounter.

Greg Kyte: I would have approached him with different energy is what I would have. So. So, like we said, uh, Jamie Knoll, he was elected [00:18:00] sheriff in 2014 and again in 2018. But, uh, sheriffs, unlike state senators, have term limits. So Jamie Knoll was prevented from seeking a third term as sheriff. So he stepped down, uh, at the end of 2022, because that was the end of his second term, and he was succeeded by Scotty Maples. That's the guy who's on the left in this picture. Uh, and Scotty Maples was also prominently featured in the first season of 60 Days [00:18:30] In. As a matter of fact, Caleb, my memory is Scotty Maples was more was in more episodes. Had more screen time than Jamie Noel did, at least for the parts that I watched. Is that what you remember?

Caleb Newquist: That my experience is the same? Yeah. A lot of lot of Scotty Maples.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. A lot of Scotty Maples. Scotty Maples was the one who took Robert out when Robert was being an idiot. So you didn't get that? You didn't get that far. That's okay. Spoiler.

Caleb Newquist: No. Yeah, I didn't get that far. And, um. Uh, thanks for spoiling it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So [00:19:00] now I, I after this webinar is over, I don't know what I have to look forward to.

Greg Kyte: Right? Most people don't. But but shortly after Scotty Maples which also it's interesting. Side note apparently everyone in Indiana has a child's name. We've got Jamie. We've got Scotty. I'm sure anyone else that we name drop is going to be Davy Jones or.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, there's definitely some Joeys.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, exactly. So, um, but shortly after, uh, Scotty Maples was elected as [00:19:30] the sheriff, he found a hidden wiretap in an office in an assistant chief's office in the sheriff's department. And that wiretap led directly to Jamie Knowles former office. It was his former office at this point because he had stepped down as sheriff. Uh, so that's that's a weird thing to see. Here's here's a quote. Here's a quote from a release that was a press release that Scotty released, as people do for press releases anyways. Uh, it says on December [00:20:00] 30th, 2022, I discovered Jamie Noel had installed a secret listening device in an office. After this discovery, I ordered an office wide review into how the sheriff's office ran and spent money. That review uncovered more disturbing information about Jamie Knoll. I was shocked at the evidence of crimes we uncovered in our review, and the steps that Jamie Knoll had taken to conceal that information from everyone. That's why I contacted [00:20:30] the Indiana State Police and asked them to conduct an independent investigation. Now, Caleb, I don't know about you, but if I if if it was me and I found a listening device like a wiretap in my office, my first thing would be like, oh, Jamie Knoll was a paranoid control freak. I wouldn't be like, we gotta check the books. We found a listening device. Somebody's been stealing money. I'd be like, no, [00:21:00] Jamie Knoll is a weirdo. And he's he's he's trying to micromanage us. Not. He's stealing all the money, people. All the money is gone. So but so, so so the thing to me, and this is like legit. This is my thought of listening to that going. You jumped immediately from wiretap to stolen money. You knew something, Scottie Maples? That's what I think. There's no there's Scottie Maples as he's there. He's not implicated in anything that happened here. But in my mind I go [00:21:30] he. The way he presented it seemed sketchy to me. Yeah. Why is.

Caleb Newquist: He discovering? Why is he discovering these listening devices?

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Well, not so much, I guess.

Caleb Newquist: Did he go looking for it?

Greg Kyte: Oh, right. I guess that's true. How did he figure it? Well, probably because he took Jamie's old office and he's like, what's the speaker for? That's that's what I. Jamie just forgot to put it in his. In his banker's box as he was leaving the office. Right. But but so? [00:22:00] So an investigation was launched by the Indiana State Police, which is a separate department from the sheriff's office. And one of the things discovered by that investigation was also that Jamie would have sheriff's office employees work and perform maintenance on his personal property, investment properties and business properties, and they did that work while they were on the clock for the Clark County Sheriff's Office. So, Caleb, that's not necessarily fraud. It it it likely [00:22:30] is, but it's not. But it's it's easily abuse of public resources. What we can say for that and and also Caleb, I'm 100% sure that this is not how it happened, but it is so fun to imagine a bunch of cops in their brown sheriff uniforms and in their goofy brown hats, just like raking leaves and washing windows and taking out the trash for for Sheriff Jamey Noel around his house to to to serve and protect. Emphasis on the serve. [00:23:00] And I do have to say this I am. This is my favorite slide of our entire slide deck. Because. Because I love artificial intelligence. Think what you will. I have a Leonardo? I and I asked it to make me a picture of my fun little, uh, fantasy of what this was like. And it came up with this, which was delightful. Um, and if you want.

Caleb Newquist: To know, I have I have no notes. I have no notes for Leonardo on [00:23:30] this. I think this is the this is the perfect depiction of, uh, of your fantasy.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. I wish they were wearing the sheriff's hats, but apart from that. Yeah, it's it's perfect. It would be a nice touch.

Caleb Newquist: But anyways.

Greg Kyte: So enough, enough enough of our fun with that. So, unsurprisingly, this this investigation that started at the sheriff's office eventually led the state police to search Jamie's home, as well as his offices at the Utica Township Volunteer Firefighters Association. The search of his home [00:24:00] revealed the extent of his lavish lifestyle, and the investigation of the volunteer fire department revealed that listen, millions of dollars had been misappropriated from the volunteer fire department. Not not million of dollars. Millions of dollars had been. And which is? Which is mind blowing. Um, then a separate state audit in early 2024 revealed that more than [00:24:30] $900,000 of the Clark County Jails Commissary Fund had also been illegally used for Jamie Knowles benefit in March of 2024. Investigators seized 26 shipping containers filled with $7 million worth of missing military surplus equipment, including vehicles and a train engine.

Caleb Newquist: Wait.

Greg Kyte: What's that? Military vehicles [00:25:00] and a train engine was in one of these shipping containers. All of it belonged to the sheriff's department. And all of it was being hidden by Jamie. And yet a train engine because. Yeah, in the 2020s. Sheriff's department need train need trains to transport all the gold from the bank. I don't know what what they need a train engine for.

Caleb Newquist: I mean, maybe maybe he had a [00:25:30] child that really wanted, like, a a life size. Thomas. The train for Christmas. Greg.

Greg Kyte: Oh, right. Right, right.

Caleb Newquist: Because that makes because that makes perfect sense.

Greg Kyte: Don't get me wrong, I, I, I understand train esthetic esthetics. If, if I could get an old rusty train engine and somehow crane it into my backyard just as a set piece, I would do, I would do it if, if I, if it was free and the crane was also free, if the okay, I [00:26:00] wouldn't really do it. But also if someone else had it, I'd be like cool train bro. That's maybe what I'd do is the extent of it. But here's the interesting thing.

Caleb Newquist: All of it. There's an interesting thing. Like the train. I was satisfied with the train engine, to be honest.

Greg Kyte: But the interesting thing is that this $6 million of military equipment and a train engine belonged to the sheriff's office. And and again, in the research, I couldn't find any more information about this military equipment. But I [00:26:30] did see was that it was clear that Jamie had hidden it, but they never went so far as to say that Jamie had taken it. So it was it was, it was. It was more like I it's almost like the investigators were like, we're like, hey, what the hell is all this crap? And Jamie was like, oh, yeah, those belong to work. And that. And it was like, that was it. They were like, cool. We'll take him back to work then. And that was kind of the extent of the military stuff, but still very notable. Um, and [00:27:00] you're right.

Caleb Newquist: That was interesting. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: For sure.

Caleb Newquist: Sorry I doubted you.

Greg Kyte: Thank thank thank you. And then in addition to all of that, it was also discovered that Jamie was running a vehicle transfer scheme in which he sold vehicles from the sheriff's office to himself for a dollar.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, well, that's a good deal.

Greg Kyte: It's an amazing deal. And again, not too many details about this, but my guess this is me putting some pieces together is that since the sheriff's office conducts those those [00:27:30] auctions that we were talking about to sell the seized property, that Jamie would just sell cars to himself for a buck before those cars happen to sell at auction. He just sort of short circuited the the process.

Caleb Newquist: Like we mentioned earlier. Jamie stole millions of dollars, primarily from the Utica Township Volunteer Firefighters Association. And the way he did it was by using fire department credit cards to make millions of dollars [00:28:00] of personal purchases. Nothing complicated. Greg. Nope.

Greg Kyte: It's, uh, maybe the simplest, uh, fraud that we've seen. Yeah, I mean, no, but but seriously, arguably, this is the simplest one. There was there was nothing complex about it. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: The firefighters association board members told state investigators that they were unaware of Noel's alleged illegal acts, saying the group had not met in several years and Noel had been in total control. I don't like the. I personally don't [00:28:30] like the sound of that, but maybe I'm a stickler, I don't know.

Greg Kyte: Well, the board is supposed to be oversight for for your nonprofit organization, and the board should not have to be called for a meeting. The board should schedule its own meetings to provide oversight for the nonprofit for which they are in existence, to give oversight.

Caleb Newquist: You're such an idealist, Greg. You're such an idealist.

Greg Kyte: I mean, in my in my nothing. Nothing's perfect in my utopia. [00:29:00] Boards of nonprofits meet every now and.

Caleb Newquist: Then, show up. Just show up, you know? Just show up. Just show up every once in a while.

Greg Kyte: Although, although I would like to say if they did have regular board meetings, I mean, I don't know. We'll get to this a little later. Okay. At the end of the show. But if they had regular board meetings, I'm not certain that they might have even found have found the fraud. Right. That's. That's possibility. Hold that.

Caleb Newquist: Thought. Presumably the volunteer firefighters association was not required to be audited. And [00:29:30] if the board wasn't providing any oversight, then. Yeah. The fire department's finances became Jamie's personal, inexhaustible piggy bank. Our favorite part of almost any show is how. How our perpetrator spent their loot. So here's here's a I don't know if this is an exhaustive list. It's probably not an exhaustive list, but it's a pretty it's a pretty darn good [00:30:00] list of what Jamie and his family purchased with public funds.

Greg Kyte: Not an exhaustive list, but still a long list. So buckle up.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Okay. Uh, tanning services.

Greg Kyte: Clothes.

Caleb Newquist: Amazon purchases.

Greg Kyte: Beauty appointments.

Caleb Newquist: Cosmetics.

Greg Kyte: Luxury travel.

Caleb Newquist: Luxury cars.

Greg Kyte: Classic cars, meals.

Caleb Newquist: At Hooters and Waffle House.

Greg Kyte: No, just to note, no meals at Olive garden. I mean, just a side note. Take from that as you will. [00:30:30] Uh, Netflix, which is a weird one on the list to me because it's like, did he just have his Netflix subscription being paid by the company card? Because I don't think there's any in Netflix purchases that you can make. So I think that must be why that's on the list.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Um. Oh, uh, vaping products.

Greg Kyte: Because he's classy. Uh, nearly two. Listen, nearly $200,000 in tuition and college [00:31:00] expenses for Jamie's two youngest daughters. Her oldest daughter apparently too dumb to get into college, but the other two brilliant and needed some help with tuition.

Caleb Newquist: Ferragamo shoes.

Greg Kyte: Do you know what Ferragamo shoes are? I do. Oh, I do not, because.

Caleb Newquist: They're very fancy. They're very they're they're. It is a luxury product.

Greg Kyte: The. I think Ferragamo in Italian means fancy. Uh, he also purchased a 1958 Cessna airplane [00:31:30] on his credit card. I believe I think I mean, that's again, I the only thing that that the research says how he got money out of the Utica Township Volunteer Fire Department was through the credit card, and he bought a 1958 Cessna airplane for $25,000. And it says that he used it to make trips to Florida and Cuba. And I'm like going, how to do that was part I. I have to speculate.

Caleb Newquist: Probably should have stayed [00:32:00] in Cuba.

Greg Kyte: Not correct. How do you go to Cuba? How do you just fly to Cuba? I don't think you can do that.

Caleb Newquist: What do you mean?

Greg Kyte: I mean, well, of course you can fly to Cuba, but when you land, aren't they going to be like, you can't be here and send you home?

Caleb Newquist: No.

Greg Kyte: Okay, well, again, no.

Caleb Newquist: The travel bans, like that's. Greg, where have you been? People have been going to Cuba for a few years now, but.

Greg Kyte: No, no, but I've looked into it because I would love to go to Cuba. And you have to have a special visa to be. You can't just book a flight on Delta to Cuba. You have to [00:32:30] have like like I listen back when we were both writing for Going Concern, I tried to go to Cuba and I said I was a jerk. Shut up. I said I was a journalist because I wrote blog posts for your website and they did not accept it. And I couldn't go to Cuba. So I'm just saying there's something fishy about him flying a Cessna to Cuba. It's weird. Just just admit that it's weird.

Caleb Newquist: Okay? Okay, I'll admit it.

Greg Kyte: Okay, fine. Anyways, the list goes on.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, the list does go on. We're not done. Cincinnati Reds season tickets.

Greg Kyte: Uh, Uber rides.

Caleb Newquist: Liquor. [00:33:00]

Greg Kyte: Dry cleaning.

Caleb Newquist: Doordash.

Greg Kyte: Uh, more than $50,000 of cigars, which. Caleb, we talked about this. You're not a cigar smoker, right?

Caleb Newquist: I am not, but that seems like a lot to spend on cigars.

Greg Kyte: I am a cigar smoker. I smoke one maybe a few every year. And, uh, yeah, if those are cigars that are in my price range, he could have purchased 2500 cigars for that, which I think also means jaw cancer. I think he has. I think [00:33:30] he purchased jaw cancer. Right. Should have been one of those on the list.

Caleb Newquist: Here's another good one. He had more than $183,000 of custom suits.

Greg Kyte: Right? And not. And those don't include his sheriff's uniforms. That's not that's this. This is again. Why do you need that many that much custom suits you have a he's not wearing them to work.

Caleb Newquist: Well, I mean, if you got all those cigars and you're taking, you know, flights to Cuba. You're feeling fancy? I'm sure you're feeling fancy.

Greg Kyte: I mean, he is. Did you see this picture of him right here on this slide? I mean, [00:34:00] yeah, it's very, very double.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, very double. Oh, look right there Greg. Yep.

Greg Kyte: And to to to round out our list. And this was odd to me as well. He, he took $33,000 of public funds, misappropriated it and then contributed to various Republican candidates and campaigns. Uh, so, uh, a Robin Hood of sorts, if we if we shall.

Caleb Newquist: Yes. But on top of all that, while Jamie was sheriff, he also had an affair [00:34:30] with a Clark County councilwoman who got pregnant and had his child. So. And according to. Oh, yes. And according to the court documents, Jamie used over $100,000 in fire department funds to pay his court ordered child support.

Greg Kyte: That is the weirdest part of this case to me is For so much. For so many reasons. Yeah. Uh, here you use. Yeah. Anyways, I don't even think I have to say why I'm not going to expound on it. It's the weirdest part of the case to me. So [00:35:00] with all that information in the hands of the state police who were doing the investigation, Jamie Knoll was arrested on November 8th, 2023, but his bail was set at $75,000 and he paid bail one hour after his arrest in cash. Is that suspicious? Nah. No, no, you get out. Could you could you get I. Listen, I want to say I'm in around the same tax bracket as Jamie [00:35:30] Knoll. I could not just find $75,000 in cash in one hour.

Caleb Newquist: I couldn't do an hour.

Greg Kyte: No. Yeah. So? So, dudes, dudes got cash. So. But again, some people, I guess I don't want to be judgmental because some people that's, you know, look, some people.

Caleb Newquist: Put, put cash under the mattresses. Some people have them in a safe in their closet with, with, with, with loads of firearms and so like yeah, no judgment. But it's been known to happen. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: I'm still saying that's pretty fast to [00:36:00] get $75,000 or.

Caleb Newquist: Confiscated drug money. Possibly.

Greg Kyte: Possibly, yes. So so he was arrested in November, paid his bail immediately. But then five months later, speaking of firearms, guns were found in Jamie Knowles home, which was a violation of his bond. So his bail was upped to $1 million and he was sent to jail for 60 days. There is video of the judge sending him to jail for 60 days and he says, what's the right, what, how? What should I do for contempt of court [00:36:30] for you? I know 60 days in and he just totally, like, force fed Jamie his own reality TV show as he sent him off to jail. It was so clear that this judge just effing hated Jamie. Like I hate.

Caleb Newquist: Video. The only I just one side note that one one of the videos that I saw, the judge was rapping his gavel so hard that he broke the gavel. He.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, that that was the same. That was the video when he was [00:37:00] sent to jail for.

Caleb Newquist: Oh yeah. I didn't watch it with audio. I was just watching the visual and like, yeah, he it's, it's he, he it looked like he was trying to chop the head off a chicken. Like that's the that was the motion that he was making with his arm like that was the force that was coming down was, was was equivalent to taking a chicken's head off. But nevertheless, Greg.

Greg Kyte: Not wrong and so well. And so just to finish the story of the judge that later the his bail went so it started at 75,000 [00:37:30] was up to 1 million with the, with the when the when the parole was broken and when he was sent to jail. And then later it was increased again to 1.5 million. And all I can tell was that was because the judge was pissed and hated Jamie. And there's no other no other reason for that whatsoever. Um, interestingly enough, as after the arrest, some 40 vehicles were confiscated from Jamie's home. This is a picture of Jamie's barn at his house. Uh, there was a. So. Yeah, 40, 40 cars were confiscated, including [00:38:00] a bunch of classics, which you can kind of see in this picture, like classic muscle cars. Here's a short list of some of the cars, if you're any car buffs, any classic car buffs out there. There were two 1970 Plymouth Superbirds that likely were worth about $200,000 each. There was a 1959 Corvette, which was probably worth around 75,000, a 66 charger, which was probably around 50,000, maybe more, give or take. And there was a 1968 1968 charger, which [00:38:30] could have easily been worth over $100,000 itself. Now, Caleb.

Caleb Newquist: Yes.

Greg Kyte: You know, I own a 1973 Ford Bronco.

Caleb Newquist: I do know that.

Greg Kyte: Ask me how many of those I own.

Caleb Newquist: How many?

Greg Kyte: One only. Only one. Caleb. I only own one. I only own one. Okay. And I.

Caleb Newquist: That's a reasonable. That's a reasonable number.

Greg Kyte: And I'm constantly asking myself, should I keep this car? It. It. I'm scared to drive it because it breaks down so often. It really [00:39:00] is just a garage filler is what it is. But I love it. But also have just one. So again, the fact that this guy has 40 vehicles stacked on top of each other in his garage and he's just a public servant, that's sketchy. That's weird. Uh, it's.

Caleb Newquist: Weird.

Greg Kyte: In August of 2024, Jamie pleaded guilty to 27 felony charges. Three people testified in court that their family members had died because of inadequate emergency [00:39:30] services, blaming delays in ambulance services as a main reason for why they lost a loved one, the implications being that those deaths could have been avoided if Jamie had not diverted, needed funds to his cigars and cars and Hooters.

Caleb Newquist: And Waffle House.

Greg Kyte: And waffle.

Caleb Newquist: House. I love waffle House.

Greg Kyte: I love waffle House, too. Still inexcusable that that I mean, really, that last part of the story puts some added gravity to [00:40:00] what happens when people misappropriate funds embezzlements not just rich people getting rich with no little or no consequences.

Caleb Newquist: Especially taxpayer dollars, right? Like, yeah. Yeah, that's I think that's the, that's that's the takeaway.

Greg Kyte: And well and then even up there it's it's first responders dollars too. So I mean it's because we've had we had one other case where we looked at someone, interestingly enough, who stole a bunch of money from a volunteer fire department. And you just go, [00:40:30] okay, the the case. I mean, we love to have fun. We want to look at what's funny in the case, but also it's impossible to escape the grave ramifications of of cases like this. And then to add insult to injury, or more specifically to add injury to injury. There was so little oversight at the Utica Township Volunteer Firefighters Association that no one canceled Jamie's credit card, and he spent 40,000 more dollars of fire [00:41:00] department money after he got arrested. Caleb, did you hear that?

Caleb Newquist: I certainly did.

Greg Kyte: That's ridiculous.

Caleb Newquist: That's ridiculous.

Greg Kyte: If someone gets fired, you cancel their card. You ask for their cards back. You cancel. You cancel it. If they get arrested, your first thing should be. We need to get that credit card. They didn't. And he spent 40,000 more dollars.

Caleb Newquist: Again, Greg, maybe in this utopia that you imagine of accountability, I just I don't know. I don't know what you I [00:41:30] don't know what your expectations are, Greg.

Greg Kyte: Just just an idealist.

Caleb Newquist: All right. In October 2024, Jamie Knoll was sentenced to 12 years in prison plus three years of probation. He was also ordered to pay $270,000 of fines, plus restitution of over $3.1 million. In a separate civil case, the state ordered Jamie to repay $918,000 he misappropriated from the Clark County Jail commissary. And I don't [00:42:00] know if I just as an aside, the fact that a commissary has that much money at all is kind of surprising. But maybe I'm just naive. Maybe I'm just like a lot of money running through a, you know, county jail commissary, I don't know.

Greg Kyte: It was a TV show. County jail.

Caleb Newquist: Commissary. True, true. Anyway, Jamie's wife, who also faces charges related to his misappropriations, has filed for divorce.

Greg Kyte: Uh, just as an epilog. [00:42:30] Uh, Sheriff Scotty Maples, uh, released a statement the day of Jamie's, uh, the day that Jamie was sentenced. And and here's here's some excerpts from that statement. He said following Jamie Knowles arrest, my office fully worked with the Indiana State Police. My team and I spent hundreds of hours reviewing records alongside investigators, and I even provided them with an office in our building to facilitate their work. The investigation revealed a number of felonies. Of those [00:43:00] 27 felonies, only one ultimately was attributed to the Clark County Sheriff's Office. So he he broke the case. But fortunately, he's trying to rebuild public trust and say, but we have things locked down here at the sheriff's office. He only committed one felony here, which was the almost million dollars he stole from the prison. I anyways. Well, look.

Caleb Newquist: Look, I mean, just look at this picture, Greg. He he is taking it so seriously that he has for he's not given ties to [00:43:30] his deputies anymore. He's the only person allowed to have a tie. And I think that that shows commitment, if nothing else.

Greg Kyte: Absolutely. If you're willing to strangle yourself at work, you you're.

Caleb Newquist: But don't expect other people to.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. There's definitely if you're wearing a tie. There's no wiretaps. No wiretaps in your office. Um, his his his statement goes on to say this. This is to ensure transparency. I have implemented unprecedented measures. Just a few months ago, during a Clark County Council [00:44:00] meeting, I publicly released records detailing every expenditure from the commissary fund. Additionally, we have revamped our purchasing procedures to prevent future abuses. I am committed to full transparency in the use of public funds. That's that's what. Because that's what you deserve it. One of the things that was fun for me doing the research is I actually found various posts while the story was breaking, some of which were even on Scottie Maples personal, uh, Facebook [00:44:30] and uh, just reading the comments, every single comment was, this freaking sheriff's full of crap. He stole money too. How could you be this guy's right hand man for eight years and not know that he's stealing $3.1 million? You had to have had a ride in one of his Plymouth Superbirds. You lying son of a bitch! Where's the money that you took? And, I mean, that was that was the tone of every single you.

Caleb Newquist: Were quoting.

Greg Kyte: Right? Right. Quoting from Facebook.

Caleb Newquist: So yeah, definitely all caps then.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, exactly. [00:45:00] And that is the, the, that's the case of, of, uh, of the crooked cop Jamie Knoll.

Caleb Newquist: So Greg, what did we learn?

Greg Kyte: Uh, well, well, it's funny, we've been doing this podcast for three years now, and, and even with jaw dropping cases, a lot of times it's not so much lessons learned. It's lessons revisited one [00:45:30] of the main ones with this one, which it was so egregious. We can't we can't not talk about it. And that is it is just the red flag behavior of living beyond your means. According to the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners, by annual report that they release, called the report to the Nations on Occupational Fraud. 39% of all fraudsters exhibit the red flag behavior of living beyond their means. Jamie clearly living beyond his means. Uh, just I mean, again, that [00:46:00] one picture of him smoking a cigar in a tuxedo. I mean, again, not that you can't be a sheriff and live it up once in a while, but it sounds like that was a regular thing. His cars, his lifestyle, he was even known. That was another funny thing that I remember. I think it was in an interview with his, uh, his sister in law is that she was like, they were just. No, there would be sightings. Like there was there was almost like a Facebook group when I saw him again at Out to Eat tonight again. I guess they never cook at home. That kind of thing. So he was. [00:46:30] He was known for that. But what's interesting about this is so often, even if there is a red flag behavior of living beyond their means, people are going to try to justify how you could possibly live beyond your means. And one of the things that could be the case and and I'm not sure, maybe Jamie even used this to to explain his lavish lifestyle is that he wasn't just a sheriff, he was on TV.

Greg Kyte: And a lot of people assume if you're on TV in whatever manner, you are rich. Not the case with Jamie Knoll. When we looked, we [00:47:00] dug into the credits on the show. He wasn't even a producer. I thought he would be a producer on the show. He was just on screen talent and that was it. Which probably means that he got like, uh, whatever the industry, uh, union rate. Yeah, the union rate was for being on screen. So maybe for the two seasons that he was on the show, maybe he made between 10 and $20,000 is maybe my guess, which wouldn't even be enough to buy one Plymouth Superbird. So? [00:47:30] So there's that. So living beyond their means is one thing. The other thing that I think is interesting is nonprofits are especially susceptible for fraud, and even more particularly something like a volunteer fire department, because, uh, it's easier because who who's going to volunteer for your fire department? It's going to be firefighters. It's probably hard to get a volunteer bookkeeper at your volunteer fire department. Um, often, as we mentioned, there's no requirement for audits in these in these nonprofits. And there's a reluctance by the board [00:48:00] to spend money on things that are non mission critical, things like audits or bookkeepers. And finally, you've got these people volunteering their time. You're going to do whatever you can to try to make life easy for your volunteers. Like not give them tons of red tape for when they're making purchases for the fire department. So if you think about it like that, it it's unfortunate, but it makes sense why nonprofits are more susceptible to fraud. But, Caleb, you had something you were going to say, kind of as a counterpoint to that, maybe.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, [00:48:30] I guess I the only thing and I'm not going to win any fans with this opinion, but I guess these small organizations, whether they're nonprofit or for profit, I think they owe it to themselves to just make things slightly more onerous or tedious. And because we've just seen countless cases of small organizations, of nonprofits or businesses or governments, in this case, Dixon, Illinois comes to mind. Yeah. Uh, the little [00:49:00] town in Maine comes to mind. Um, Claudia.

Greg Kyte: Claudia viles and Anson. Maine.

Caleb Newquist: That's right. Anson, Maine. There's just no checks and balances. And I don't mean to say that there's, uh, few checks and balances. I mean to say that there are no checks and balances, right? And so there's usually one person in charge who more or less does everything with no oversight whatsoever. And I think if you care, if you if you even care the slightest bit about how your organization is [00:49:30] run, whether it's a nonprofit, whether it's a business or whether it's a it's a component of a local government, you should either appoint someone, especially if money is, you know, not if you don't have resources to pay this person, you, you, you, you volunteer, tell them or you, you. If you do have resources, you hire them, uh, to just at the very, very least, to monitor your finances. And ideally, that person that person is highly ethical, uh, a stickler for rules and [00:50:00] has an iron backbone. And and I would, I would I would be very happy to see more, uh, small organizations take that, uh, seriously. And not that they don't take it seriously, but it is. But as we've just seen a time and time again where the lack of checks and balances, the lack of controls results in disaster. And I would just, I think, I think we could all do with a little less disaster, don't you, Greg?

Greg Kyte: I do. And [00:50:30] that's it for this episode. Remember, if someone stole millions of dollars from your organization using a credit card, maybe consider canceling that credit card.

Caleb Newquist: And also remember, if you're behind on child support for one or more of your illegitimate children, the Utica Township Volunteer Firefighters Association is looking for a new chief. Greg, that was so much fun.

Greg Kyte: That was a blast. Yeah, such a fun case. [00:51:00] I mean, even though it was a virtual audience, it was fun. The interactions that we got from them. Yeah, yeah, just just a wonderful experience with North America.

Caleb Newquist: I have found I, I generally detest the, the zoom chat. Um, but when you're presenting, it's actually quite useful. So I have I have kind of made I found a common ground of, of of tolerance when it comes to the zoom chat. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Plus it was fun. It was [00:51:30] like a time machine for us because the listeners might not know. This is our podcast actually was born from a bunch of webinars that we did together over a couple of years. Not all I the minority of which were about fraud, but we would do a regular fraud, uh, webinar, uh, together. And so it was kind of fun doing the podcast, but doing it in a webinar form. So it's kind of taking us back to our roots.

Caleb Newquist: Definitely, definitely.

Greg Kyte: Well, if you would like to drop us a line about anything request, [00:52:00] if you have a fun fraud case that you know of that we haven't covered anything like that, please feel free to send us an email at oh my fraud@earmarks.com. And Caleb, where can people find you if they'd like to contact you directly?

Caleb Newquist: Uh, you can reach me on LinkedIn slash Caleb Norquist. Greg, where are you?

Greg Kyte: Uh, LinkedIn's the best place. I'm Greg Kyte, CPA on LinkedIn, so you can find me there.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, My Fraud is written by Greg Kite and myself. Our producer is Zach Franc. Rate review and [00:52:30] subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. If you listen on earmark, you can get free CPE. Uh, just like those more North America folks. What if they get the wait a minute. So if they get the CPE for being in the live presentation and then they listen to this podcast, they're.

Greg Kyte: Wasting their time, man.

Caleb Newquist: I mean, or wait or double dipping. They're double dipping.

Greg Kyte: They could commit CPE fraud. Yes, they they could do that and then wind up.

Caleb Newquist: On our show.

Greg Kyte: Exactly.

Caleb Newquist: All right. Join us next time for more avarice, swindlers and scams from stories that will make you say, oh my frog, [00:53:00] oh my fraud.