Oh My Fraud

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Earmark CPE: If you'd like to earn CPE credit for listening to this episode, visit earmark Cpcomm. Download the app. Take a short quiz and get your CPE certificate. Continuing education has never been so easy. And now on to the episode.

Greg Kyte: Hello and welcome to Oh My Fraud, a true crime podcast where our criminals are less likely to shoot the CEO of a health insurance company [00:00:30] and more likely to be the CEO of a health insurance company. I'm Greg Kyte.

Caleb Newquist: And I'm Caleb Newquist. Uh, happy new year, Greg.

Greg Kyte: Thanks, Caleb. Happy New Year. Back to you. This episode is dropping on New Year's Day 2025.

Caleb Newquist: Uh, Greg, uh, do you have any, um, since it is New Years Day, I'm curious. Do you have you made any, uh, New Year's resolutions?

Greg Kyte: I so, uh, interestingly enough, I, I don't [00:01:00] I'm not a big New Year's Resolutions guy. Okay. Uh, never really done a lot much for reflection. Traditional resolutions. What? Oh, sorry. Well, no no, no, I no, I actually am big on that, like I don't it's never like I in this next year I will I'll stop being an idiot in this area of my life. That seems like what resolutions usually are. It's like I, uh. And I'm, I'm constantly telling me myself, uh, where reminding myself of areas of my life where I'm screwing it up so [00:01:30] I don't need. I don't need a particular day of the year to. Yeah, that's that's constant. I kind of.

Caleb Newquist: Feel the same way. Like, uh, it is, is like. It's like, well, I'm going to wait till January to give up soda. It's like you just quit drinking soda now or quit or or going to McDonald's, you know, uh, 50% as much. It's like I only have to go twice a week. I don't have to go four times a week. What's the matter with you?

Greg Kyte: Yeah. And it I mean, it's not like I, [00:02:00] I in November I knew that I could lose a few pounds. I don't need.

Caleb Newquist: It. Right. That's right. Yeah. So. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: But but what, what I typically do. So not not resolutions but but almost every year for gosh I can't even remember how long. It's been a long, long time. I will think a lot about the coming year and think about what I would like to achieve or what I would like to accomplish, or kind of, you know, kind of hopes and dreams for the coming year. I think the end of the year, beginning of a new year is a good time [00:02:30] to, to, to, to to have that exercise. Yeah. And and it's kind of it's kind of fun. It's sort of a, you know, hopeful time when you go, okay. What. Remember what dreaming used to feel like. Right. And. Yeah. And uh, do that for a minute okay.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. And so have you. So, so so tell me, what are you dreaming about in 2025?

Greg Kyte: Oh, well, okay. And that's where the rest of that story was. I'm remiss in even doing that so far. Uh, so. But but [00:03:00] it's because, I mean, really the funny thing, the big dream for 2025 is just stuff that will kind of happen on its own because as, as, you know, as the listeners probably don't know, I've had I had three major surgeries in 2024. Yeah. Uh, total total hip replacement on my right hip, uh, rotator cuff and bone spurs on my right shoulder. And then just at the beginning of December of 2024, I same thing on my left shoulder. I had a bone spur and rotator cuff tendon [00:03:30] surgery there. So I've had three major surgeries. So 2025 is the year where Greg finishes physical therapy and hopefully gets back to like, a normal life.

Caleb Newquist: Zero. Zero. You're you're shooting for zero surgeries in 20 surgeries.

Greg Kyte: That's the resolution for 2025. Although it's so weird when you have this many surgeries then any any like any time I have a a twinge in my left hip, I'm like going it's going to just a matter of time.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Greg Kyte: So kind of kind of [00:04:00] sucks. And even even that, I think I did something to my right shoulder, which I got fixed over six months ago. And I'm sure it's just a normal whatever from being active because they released me on my right shoulder to be active. But it hurts and I go, I probably screwed it up. I have to get that one done again, too.

Caleb Newquist: So I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna double up on shoulder surgeries.

Greg Kyte: But I mean, should should we should we get to the big news?

Caleb Newquist: Oh, is there news?

Greg Kyte: Yes.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, [00:04:30] okay. Lay it on me, man. I'm.

Greg Kyte: I'm not. I'm not going to be on the podcast anymore. What? It's okay. You played that two too. Good. I was like, going. Is he seriously not? I'm sure this is a this is a softball. Have you been going to, like, an improv class or something? Jesus. I was like, I was like, seriously, is this all?

Caleb Newquist: This his natural talent?

Greg Kyte: Greg was our banter too authentic? And he's like going, hey, wait. What? What? Big [00:05:00] name? We've been off script. We're not going to get back to a script right now. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Jesus, Caleb.

Caleb Newquist: So, yeah. Now that now that, now that Greg is on his heels a bit. Yes. Greg, you're you're leaving the show.

Greg Kyte: I am, I'm leaving the show. It's been a it's been a it was a it was a long and difficult decision to get to, but, uh, but yeah, I've decided that it's like.

Caleb Newquist: What? Like, like a, like a weekend. You decided?

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Like [00:05:30] a weekend. Like. Like, we've been talking about this for months and.

Caleb Newquist: And.

Greg Kyte: And and in very, I don't know, very true to form for me I like dropped it on you. We, we processed it a little bit and then we both just ignored it like just kind of I don't think either of us were in denial, but it was a little bit of like, we're just not going to talk about that for a while.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Greg wanted to be, I think, I don't know if you wanted me to be more upset. I know you did.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, I wanted me to.

Caleb Newquist: Greg wanted me to beg [00:06:00] not to go.

Greg Kyte: Not. Not at all. I know what's what's. I mean, one of the things that made the the, the decision so difficult is. So we've been doing this podcast. We've been we've been dropping episodes of the podcast for three years.

Caleb Newquist: Three years. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Um, but I want to say it was about six months ahead of that that we started the planning and we started even some of the recording before we went live with the podcast. So it's this has been about three and a half years of our, of our lives that we put into this. And we've talked about [00:06:30] this a lot. Uh, this the pod. I'm so proud of what we've done. Oh, this is I mean, this has been fun.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. It's fun.

Greg Kyte: I'm happy with what we've what we put out. Uh, but but the thing for me and the main reason.

Caleb Newquist: Still waiting on the 10 million from Amazon, but whatever.

Greg Kyte: Right. And for the Meundies sponsorship, all that stuff. But, um. But the big. Oh, yeah. But but I mean, yeah, this has been this has been great. The feedback's been great. I love the interaction we have with the listeners, which [00:07:00] has been which has exceeded my expectations. I think it's fun how many episodes that we've put on that were because listeners have been like, hey, have you guys ever heard of this, this case? And we're like, we're supposed to be the experts. We're like, no, we have never heard of that. And then we look into it and go, that's amazing. And we do we do the case. But, um, for me and this is, this is, uh, I think this is not talked about enough. It's definitely being talked about more and more, but still not enough. And I feel like I [00:07:30] mean, I don't know, you might feel this way too, Caleb, but in the accounting profession specifically, I think we very much downplay a lot of mental health issues. And that's that's the main thing for me. Why I feel like I need to step away is just to, uh, ensure, I don't know, not insured to try to help my mental health get better because I've, I've, I struggle a lot with anxiety. Um, and my and and I've got the kind of. [00:08:00] So I also struggle with depression. But after years of therapy, we figured out that my, that anxiety is kind of the main thing and, and my anxiety when I'm, when I'm spiraling out with anxiety, one of the things that that causes is that causes depression for me. So I got both of them, and it's pretty rough. But I think, I mean, do you I mean, you spent so much time writing on going concern. Yeah. You got to have an opinion about accountants and mental and and their attentiveness to mental health, right? Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: I mean, as a, as somebody who [00:08:30] was an accountant and, uh, got the hell out of that, um, I saw I, I myself experienced it and I saw lots of people struggling with it, um, both in terms of, you know, high degrees, high degrees of anxiety, high degrees of depression. And um, and people. Um, yeah. To the extent that I understood it, uh, people not necessarily [00:09:00] taking the steps to take care of it and also as a, as a, like you say, as a, as a field, uh, not something that's been openly talked about until very recently. And I would say that's true of, of, of, of work culture in the US in general. Um, I think it's been getting better, particularly since the pandemic. The pandemic kind of forced us as a country to do some navel gazing. Right? Collectively, yeah. Um, with, you know, mixed [00:09:30] results. But, um, but I do think, um, you know, I think in the accounting world, I think more attention has been drawn to it, and I think it's better than it was.

Greg Kyte: Oh, yeah. For sure.

Caleb Newquist: But I still think it's something I, and I would say to a degree, it's still taboo for a lot of people. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: No, no, no, I agree. And I would say the ways that it's gotten better in the accounting profession is just more the like. So just overall more social acceptance and more recognition [00:10:00] that that a lot of people struggle with anxiety. A lot of people struggle with depression. Yeah. Um, funny story, my first year. So I spent, uh, right after I got I finished getting my bachelor's in accounting before I was licensed as a CPA. My first job in the accounting profession was at a mid-sized local CPA firm. I started feeling like I was I it wasn't heart palpitations. It was more like I would just get like my heart would start to race for no particular reason. Like I'd just be. It's [00:10:30] I didn't just go up a flight of stairs, but my heart is all of a sudden racing, so I'm worried that I'm having some sort of cardiac problem. I go to my general practice doc and I tell him what's going on. They do some tests. He goes, no, your heart's fine. I think you have anxiety. And I was like going, You think so? And he was like, yes. So I had some I had mental health issues starting my first busy season in the, in the profession, but likely they'd been there all along and I was.

Caleb Newquist: Going to say.

Greg Kyte: Dormant as.

Caleb Newquist: As the listeners may or may [00:11:00] not recall, Greg was a middle school math teacher, and if he was not experiencing anxiety as a middle school math teacher, then I'm not sure. I believe that Greg was a middle school math teacher.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Well, yeah. And so and I guess, you know, that's one of those things that you kind of, I don't know, like I said, I don't feel like I'm a different person. It's weird that you to age into mental health problems because I guess when I think especially I think depression, [00:11:30] you think of like teenagers who won't come out of their room and just need it dark and have to listen to, uh, Nine Inch Nails or something like that.

Caleb Newquist: Elliott Smith, you know, Elliott Smith.

Greg Kyte: Okay. Yeah. Uh, so, um, but but, uh, more and more, I've been getting like, there's time and I feel like 20, 24. I just got clobbered with. With anxiety, like, clobbered. I even went I even spent a week doing transcranial magnetic stimulation, which is like [00:12:00] some, like, state of the art.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, it's a new treatment. New treatment?

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Some big, expensive machine they put against your scalp. And it helped that I'm bald as as the moon. That really helped him get the machine right where they need. Because you did. They.

Caleb Newquist: Did they say something to you about it? Like, I really, really appreciate you coming in with the, you know, with the with the with with the Mr. Clean look.

Greg Kyte: Right. Well, they I kept joking around because they have to I mean, it's quite a process for them to actually before they start [00:12:30] the treatment to align the machine just right, because they took MRIs and everything to find the part of my brain that they were supposed to target with this machine. I'm like going, we can just take a Sharpie and draw a circle and point an arrow. Go point machine here and that kind of thing. But but anyway, so I'm, I'm doing all this stuff that and, and the realization has been that I really just need to I need to do less. I just need to do less stuff. Yeah. Because, uh, because part of my anxiety is driven [00:13:00] by perfectionism. I'm trying to deal with that through therapy. Uh, but before. But we haven't cracked the code on that. And and even one of the things I'm coming up with, Caleb is that my perfectionism, if my if my anxiety comes from perfectionism, perfectionism, it can be a very bad thing. Yep. But there's a lot of ways where it's been very helpful and very good for me too. So trying to navigate that if I just give up on perfection anyways, that's that's a very complicated issue. But what's much [00:13:30] easier is to go. I'm doing too much stuff, all of it. I have very high standards for. Yeah, the best, most immediate results I can find is just by stepping away from some of the things I do.

Caleb Newquist: I to to keep the audience kind of looped in here. I told Greg he could start phoning it in even more than he has been, and he did, and he turned me down. So like, I really I really gave him the opportunity to really start slouching. And he refused. He refused. This is the kind of [00:14:00] standards that this man has.

Greg Kyte: I like it, I like that you said phoning it in even more than he already was. That was that was good. Uh, so. But but true. Like, that's that's so true. I can't I can't phone stuff in. Right. Because the because the expectations and the standards I have for myself are high enough that it's like I just can't. That's it. I can't do that. I've tried that and I and it's not.

Caleb Newquist: Well and I think I cut you off. But just to give people a little bit more of our experience together, because we've [00:14:30] worked together on stuff for over a dozen years now, I'd say. Yeah. Yep. And I think it, I remember hopefully I'm not repeating something you already said, but like in the going concern days, you would file a, you would file a blog post with me for, you know, to be edited. And I would read it and I didn't edit your stuff heavy. Maybe the first couple, like that's kind of how I roll as an editor is like, I, I, I tear up people's like the first time [00:15:00] they submit something to me, I tear it up, and then maybe the second one it's a little less. But then after that I'm like, no, I think you got it. And then I just it's kind of like the it's kind of like the the rite of passage. Really. Sure. And I think for you, like, because I think it was, I think it was probably similar. And then your stuff was just so good that I just it was light edits, you know, I didn't have to I didn't have to ask you to go back and do stuff, do a lot of big changes or anything. Right. And but you would always tell me you'd be like, yeah, I can't I [00:15:30] this, this is I had a hard time with this one.

Caleb Newquist: I'm like, Greg, this is so good. Like it's so funny and like people are going to love it. He's like, really? Okay, good. I just I mean, because it is well, it's not easy for me. I'm like, really, Greg, I tell you, I'm like, you're a very good writer. He'd be like, really? Geez, thanks. I'm like and and that was and I think after I had said that to you a few times, you kind of maybe accepted it, but you were probably just like, he's just gonna tell me that I'm a good [00:16:00] writer, so I'm just going to keep this to myself. Now that I'm struggling here and I just, I think I and I don't know, maybe if I've gotten any aspect of that wrong, please correct me. But I recall what the point is, is I remember you having similar like looking back on it with hindsight. It's like you were experiencing anxiety with your with with with. It wasn't a column, but like the articles that you wrote for us, you were experiencing anxiety with those. And I think I did my best to reassure [00:16:30] you that, like, dude, you've got this like you don't and, and uh, and at some point You.

Caleb Newquist: You attempted to leave and then I wouldn't let you. And then and then we figured something out. And then eventually you're like, you know what? I'm not going to write anymore, but I will draw you cartoons. I'm like, okay, I'll take a cartoon. And like, so you did the cartoons for a while, and then eventually you were like, yeah, I can't do the cartoons anymore. And I'm just. And it was, you know, there was, there was, there was kind of these ebbs and [00:17:00] flows that you went through even back then.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Well, okay. So a couple a couple thoughts on that. First off, one of the things that I thought one of my big memories of writing those blog posts for you was like, what? Like I remember at one point you, like ramped up my like, I think we went from every other week to every week for a blog post or something like that, and I and I, and that's when I was really like, oh my, that's when that's when that, that conversation. I don't know, this one, this this was hard. Here it is. This is this is what I got. And you may like and you [00:17:30] would tell me, you'd be like, I think your writing's better when you're when you're when you're under pressure, which is a horrible thing to tell somebody with anxiety because then you go, well, okay, I can't. So I guess I'm trapped. The only way that I do stuff well is, uh, is if I am am just steeped in anxiety. Yeah. Uh, but also the funny thing, I mean, that is I the, the process you describe is like, I'm doing this, uh, and I'm trying it, and then I go, okay, [00:18:00] I need to step away from that. And then I'm doing this, and I'm trying that, and I need to step away from that.

Greg Kyte: That really is just an example of of the barbell strategy that I've talked to you about before, where it's like, I've got my day job, it's my steady income, it's the stuff I'm doing. And then but with my spare time, with the extra time I got, I'm going to try a bunch of different things and just see, see what, if anything, will, you know, is something that that that works, that, you know, it seems like it's got a long term thing, seems like it's, you know, whatever. And, and, and part of that whole [00:18:30] thing is that with that experimental stuff, with kind of the side hustle stuff, is that there does there actually needs to be some churn there because you're always trying to discover the next, the next big thing. So that said, it was like I said, it was a it was a long and difficult process because this is, you know, I love working with you. I feel like we've put put out a good product, but I also feel like the best decision for me is I need to just, uh, have less stuff to feel like, to have my perfectionism torture [00:19:00] me about. Uh, and that's, that's, that's where we're at. So. And that's how we got here, but.

Caleb Newquist: That's where we are. But. And I didn't give Greg too hard of a time. No, I berated him for like ten minutes, and then I let it go. And that didn't land. So don't use it. So it's fine. But no. But like, we want I, having known you for so long now, uh, I just want what's best for you.

Greg Kyte: And so what you've made clear and and I'm so grateful for that. Yeah, yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Well, I mean, I'm [00:19:30] not a monster. Well, some people, some people expect me to be a monster, but I have never been a monster.

Greg Kyte: Far from it. And the thing for me too, is that I mean, I, you know, our friendship. Like you said, we've had a long friendship. We've done so much together professionally. And this is really. I've liked.

Caleb Newquist: I've been lying in your pockets, Greg, for so long.

Greg Kyte: For so long.

Caleb Newquist: Let's be honest here.

Greg Kyte: Oh, absolutely. And, and and this is really the project that we've done where, you know, where [00:20:00] I mean, it's this is this is the most partnership y thing that we've ever done.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: And so it was also difficult where it's like, well, this decision is going to affect Caleb. Yeah. Like if I make this unilateral. So that was that's difficult because you don't want to, you know put your you want to put a friend in a, in a, you know, make I always hate it when my decisions affect someone else greatly too, because, uh, yeah. For obvious reasons. So but with that said, yeah.

Caleb Newquist: We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna do a little Greg Kite retrospective [00:20:30] for the, for this the first episode of 2025? And oh, we should mention people are going to hear you in two more episodes.

Greg Kyte: Oh, right. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: So let's let's just be clear about that. You were. So the next two episodes or a couple of interviews that we did in December. Yeah. And they're in, they're in they're great. They're really great. So good with a with a couple of prosecutors and they're very different conversations. And Greg, you were a part of both of those. So yes. You [00:21:00] know in in February you'll start missing Greg. But in the meantime you'll get Greg a little bit more.

Greg Kyte: There's a chance I'm going to tease this out too. Oh, there's a chance because there's another episode, another interview we did a long time ago about a case that ended up going to court. And the person we interviewed said, you can't play my episode because it might screw up the court proceedings. So there's a possibility that there's a third, like archived Greg Kite episode that may come out. Who knows when, maybe in 2026. Yeah. [00:21:30]

Caleb Newquist: We'll see.

Greg Kyte: We're having a hard time. I'm not holding my breath.

Caleb Newquist: I'm not holding my breath. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Anyway. Me neither. At this point.

Caleb Newquist: At this point, no. Um. But. Okay. So. Greg, I'm gonna. So I'll just. I'll just ask you a few questions. Uh, as we kind of get into the. This isn't a roast. I wish I was good at roasting. I can't really roast, but, yeah, we're just gonna do a little retrospective of some of the stuff that you liked about this podcast, because there's lots to like, and I'm sure people are curious of what your favorite stuff is. So let's start [00:22:00] with, um, well, let's start with stuff that is like just stuff that's memorable, not necessarily your favorite cases or your favorite interviews, but like just things that were memorable in general. Like what? What do you remember that were just, I don't know, either funny or terribly awkward or, I don't know, some something you learned, I don't know, what do you what do you got for memorable moments?

Greg Kyte: Okay. Well, the first memorable moment that I have kind of behind the scenes sort of stuff was even how [00:22:30] we started the podcast, because we'd done a bunch of webinars about fraud, and then you approached me and you go, hey, I think we could do a podcast about fraud. What would you think about doing a podcast about fraud? Yeah. And and I was like, you know, I just finished up with another podcast that I did for ten years, and I was like, I, I'm not I'm open to doing another podcast, but I want to feel like we could change the world that like, if the podcast can change the world I'm in. And that was me kind of trying to say [00:23:00] like, no, like gently to go, yeah, no, no, this is a no. And then and then like a few months later you called me back and you're like, hey, I think we figured out how our fraud podcast would change the world. And it was it was just through the CPE stuff where it's like, people need CPE, we can make this fun and entertaining thing, and it can be this great thing, which it has been. And that's and so I was like, oh, God damn it. Caleb found out a way to change the world with a fucking podcast. Guess so, but but but so [00:23:30] yeah, even though it sounds like I reluctantly joined on, I was I was excited about it. And yeah, the more we talked about it.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, it was very exciting. Launch to the podcast. Um, and then another, another funny thing, just to I mean, we love to talk about like, the psychology of our fraudsters. That's that's, uh, counterintuitive. The other thing that that's counterintuitive is we've been talking about me stepping away from the podcast for at least a few months now, and ever since making that decision, like knowing that there's like a finite number of these, that we're [00:24:00] going to do that every single one since then has been a joy, which also makes the decision, you know, like, I mean, I guess there's two. Yeah. It's been it's been delightful. Like extra delightful. Yes. For the past few months to do these. And it made it made it harder to, to, to continue to resolve to do the thing that I needed to do. But it was also, I think, a good thing where even after that I go, no, still, even though this is a joy, it's. I know it's best for my mental [00:24:30] health to, you know, kind of kind of made me put the decision through the fire to, to make sure that I was doing the right thing. So those are some fun things, some other things that, that I remember. Um, I do remember early on we interviewed Kelly Richmond Pope, who she's the, uh, she is the documentarian who put out the documentary All the King's Horses, episode one of our earlier episodes, I think, from the first year. Right.

Caleb Newquist: Episode 20. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Episode 20. Yeah. So. And and it was, uh, [00:25:00] this has happened multiple times. To me, it seems like with professors in the accounting world where I will try to be funny and they shut me down like a student who's like, heckling them is what it is, is what it feels like. Yeah. And I, I got and Kelly Richmond Pope, she is a professor and I, I sense some of that but the the the crux of that. And if you want to go back and listen to episode 20, you can identify exactly when this happens where we're we were talking about whistleblowers. She's [00:25:30] a big advocate for whistleblowers. She feels like we need more whistleblowers. Anything we can do to encourage whistleblowers is the right thing. And I said something like, yeah, we need to support those snitches or something like that. And she was like, we don't use that word here. Or it was something like that where she, she very much shut me down and put me in my place. And I was like, oh, I just I just ruined the vibe for this interview. And I'll spend the rest of the time trying to trying to rebuild it.

Caleb Newquist: Yes, I've, I've, I've, [00:26:00] I've alienated you and I will spend the rest of the time winning your love back.

Greg Kyte: Trying, desperately trying. At least. I don't.

Caleb Newquist: Know if you did.

Greg Kyte: But I don't. Yeah. That's, uh, I think there's a good case for. No. Yeah. Uh, then, uh, if.

Caleb Newquist: You want to hear all that, definitely check out episode 20 with Kelly Richmond Pope.

Greg Kyte: Uh, another another fun memory. Well, this. Yeah. I don't know this. I think this is a very fun memory. Okay. So again early episode it was the the the Pappy Gate with the Pappy Van Winkle. [00:26:30]

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Inventory theft. So it was the Buffalo Trace Distillery in Kentucky.

Caleb Newquist: An episode. Episode eight. Yep.

Greg Kyte: And so Buffalo in Kentucky. Uh, bunch of bunch of Pappy Van Winkle whiskey goes, goes missing, and the whole thing ends up getting pinned on this guy named Toby Curtsinger. Um, but but as we unpack the case, it was like, this was this was a fraud. That this this group of knuckleheads just, like, fell into somehow. Yeah. [00:27:00] And it's almost like it just started happening on its own, and it became a thing without them really trying. And then the next thing, it becomes national international news. Because Pappy Van Winkle bourbon is such a big damn deal. 200 bottles of it going missing becomes international news. And then the elected sheriff in that case is trying to make sure that his his reputation is good because there's this, this crime that happened in his jurisdiction on his watch. So he's got to make sure that he finds [00:27:30] the culprit for that. And he does find Toby. Toby's definitely guilty of stuff. But even after all of that, it's almost like, did, uh, did Toby just take the fall because they needed somebody to take the fall? Because, as you remember, there's another guy. I can't remember his name, but I think his first name was Greg, which was memorable to me. Yeah. Uh, and they were, because they were interviewing everybody at the distillery and going, hey, if you got any information on Toby, we need it.

Greg Kyte: And they're like, But I'm not going to tell you because it might incriminate [00:28:00] me. And they go, okay, we'll give you immunity if you'll just give us this information. And this guy Greg, whatever, Greg Allen or something like that, he was like, okay, uh, cool. So I got immunity. Okay. Uh, and basically without saying, it was basically like I did, I did that, I still live, but here's some stuff I know about Toby. But also, yeah, I took a lot of stuff, too. May or may not have taken 200 bottles of Pappy Van Winkle. So it's it's one of those cases that was solved, was closed. But also, if you get it in the nitty gritty, maybe the wrong [00:28:30] guy went to jail. So fun episode. But the very interesting thing is we started reaching out to people who perpetrated frauds from episodes to see if they would be willing to come on the show to be interviewed, because getting a fraudsters version of the story. So fascinating. Yeah. So we try. So we reached out to Toby Curtsinger and then his but like a buddy of his because he started like because yeah he went to jail for [00:29:00] a while. Got out. He's been on probation.

Greg Kyte: I think he's probably off of probation now. He went from a career as a bourbon distillery worker to a house painter, and he's barely making ends meet. And so he's he's cashing in on his crime by trying to go on the speaking circuit and his buddy, just like a high school buddy or something, is now his manager trying to book his gigs. But it was the clear impression nobody in the Toby Curtsinger Enterprises [00:29:30] knew what the hell they were doing, and we tried multiple times to get a date on the calendar, and it just blew by, and it seemed like they very much wanted it to happen, and we very much were unable to get them to make it happen. But the other interesting thing about this, Caleb and I don't know if you remember this, he's the guy who's like, managing Toby Curtsinger was also like, hey, we really want somebody to write a book about this case. Would you guys want to write a book about this case? And we were both like, do we? And then we were like, no, [00:30:00] no, actually we we don't, we don't. Unless we get a book deal. If we get a book deal with an advance, then yeah, maybe we would. But yeah. Other than that yeah maybe. No.

Caleb Newquist: So yeah. So yeah that was a that was an interesting like false start I suppose there's multiple false starts from that whole. Yeah, but.

Greg Kyte: But also kind of fun just to know that we had, you know, in some some in some fashion, we were on the radar of a guy who did a pretty interesting and [00:30:30] comical crime.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: So so we'll.

Caleb Newquist: See if he changes his mind. I'm sure they'll reach out to you and then you'll be back to the podcast in no time. Right?

Greg Kyte: Right? Right. Yeah. Just just to be able to try to talk to him about his fraud case where I've on numerous occasions called him an idiot. That's it's like if he listens to his episode before we interview him, he's not going to want to be.

Caleb Newquist: Probably not going to want to. Come on. Probably not. That's probably.

Greg Kyte: True. So.

Caleb Newquist: So yeah. So yeah, they were memorable. [00:31:00] Um, so thanks for thanks for talking about this. Yeah. Before we, um, we're going to we are going to do some year in review stuff. Yes. Or some or some updates, I suppose. Oh yeah.

Greg Kyte: Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: But, um, but also, I guess I'm just curious. I'm, I'm sure people are curious. Do you have any favorite cases, like 1 or 2 that your absolute favorites that we did.

Greg Kyte: It's so funny. Whenever I scroll back through our episode list on on our website, that's that's the easiest place for me to find all of our episodes. And it's so easy to just go there and go, oh, that was good. Oh, that was a good one. [00:31:30] Oh, that was so much fun. Oh, what a fun story. But, um, but the ones. Oh, gosh. And it is, it's hard to it's hard to narrow it down, but here's, here's some of my favorite ones. Um, uh, fat Leonard was a was a good one. Fat Leonard. Uh, he his he he, uh, was a bribery scandal within the US Navy. Uh, he it was.

Caleb Newquist: Episode 30.

Greg Kyte: And and.

Caleb Newquist: It was. You want to check it out?

Greg Kyte: I believe if I'm remembering my numbers. Right. It was the seventh [00:32:00] fleet of the US Navy, which was, uh, in the Pacific Ocean. And he. And it was one of those things where it was it was more it was easier. It was easier to find somebody who had received a bribe from Fat Leonard than to find someone who had not received a bribe from Fat Leonard in in. So it was just this incredibly widespread corruption scandal, but from someone who also gave some very, very effective services to the, to the Navy. So he's good at what he did. He was doing it in a corrupt way. Uh, his [00:32:30] corruption was was vast. The story even got more, you know, scandalous because he would he would hire prostitutes for these huge parties that he would throw. So he'd hire hookers for the Navy guys, which is like, okay, that's, you know, be original. Maybe that's, you know, for some reason, that seems like a trope that we've gone into before. And then finally the whole thing gets blown up. He gets he gets ambushed when he's in San Diego trying to give a pitch for more of his services directly to the Navy.

Greg Kyte: He gets ambushed [00:33:00] by the FBI, gets taken to jail, and then. And then the kicker on this thing is that he he, uh, he was put in house arrest, uh, which was a little bit sketchy to begin with. And and then one day. Oh, but he had to remember. He had to pay for his own security detail while he was in house. So it's like we're going to lock you up in the prison guards. You have to their their your employees. It's like, okay, this doesn't seem legit. And then it sounds like he told the guys just to take a day off and he just split and he he went, [00:33:30] if I remember right, he. So he was in San Diego. He escaped from San Diego to Mexico, went from Mexico to Cuba, went from Cuba to Cuba to Venezuela and in Venezuela. He was about to board a flight to get him to Russia when he was apprehended, because there was a what is it, a red code red. What's the do you remember the thing like the Interpol? Uh, red notice. Red something.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, something like that.

Greg Kyte: Something like that. Anyways, Interpol had a had a, you know, APB out on Fat [00:34:00] Leonard, and they caught him right at the last second before you figure if he got to Russia, we'd never hear from him again. But also the US relations with Venezuela. Not so awesome. So. And I guess we didn't look for a current update on this, but the last I heard, I have. Oh, you have it. Okay. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: He was. And so in 2024, the update is that he was finally sentenced and he was sentenced. This is about just about a month ago as of this report or recording. Okay. He was sentenced to 15 years.

Greg Kyte: Okay. But they did [00:34:30] extradite him back from Venezuela. That's. Yes. That's where we left the story when we did the episode is he was still in Venezuela because Venezuela in the US aren't pals. So there you go. Yeah. So now we're just waiting for him to escape again. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Uh, no.

Caleb Newquist: That was a good one. That was so.

Greg Kyte: Good. Yeah. Um, another one was was the Brex Mining company. The Canadian mining company?

Caleb Newquist: Oh, yeah. Episode 38.

Greg Kyte: And they, they went to, uh, they were about it was this. It was called the Junior Mining Company. So they didn't actually extract the minerals. [00:35:00] They just found them. And they were about to go bankrupt as a company. Uh, the story is that the founder spent his last $10,000 to his name, uh, to go with a geologist to the Isle of Borneo in Southeast Asia, just as a Hail Mary, to see if they could find some gold there. And brother, did they ever they found all the gold there, and so their penny their stocks of again, if I'm remembering the numbers right, the the all time low for their stock was $0.12 a share and [00:35:30] the all time high was like $258 and something cents for their share. So I'm sure my numbers are wrong. But still, the the increase, the dramatic exponential increase in their stock value was that that illustrates it properly. Yes. Regardless. Um, and uh, yeah. So but it's this very remote. Uh, it's this, this, this densely jungled island in a very remote part of the world, very difficult to get to the actual site where they're finding the gold. [00:36:00] And so their, their geologists are taking these core samples, they're analyzing the core sample, they're sending the data back, and just every new sample says there's more and more gold here. They hit the mother lode, literally, and they just need to mine it. And they finally get hooked up together with an actual mining company that is going to go and take the the minerals, the gold out of the ground in Borneo.

Greg Kyte: The actual mining company goes there, they start their operations and those guys go there like so. Hey, so where was all that gold? Uh, are we. And they were like, uh. [00:36:30] It's there. They're like, no, we're not finding any gold here at, like, insignificant traces of gold. So they send their lead geologist, the guy who was taking the samples is like, you got to get to Borneo, like today to fix this, because they're saying they can't find this gold, but we know that there's all this gold there. So that guy takes a flight from Canada to, uh, to some place in Borneo that has an airport. And then the last leg of the trip is via helicopter. So he gets in a helicopter, they start flying to this place 20 [00:37:00] minutes in the helicopter, this guy jumps out of the helicopter to his grisly death. And they can't. And they can't recover the body for days. When they do, it's been. It's like covered with leeches. It is. You know, it's it's this, you know, humid, wet, tropical jungle. So the body is decayed. They think animals and insects have been eating it, like I said, covered with leeches. They take it back. They can't they cannot positively identify that it was the geologist. So the it was it a was it a suicide. [00:37:30]

Greg Kyte: Was it a was it a faked suicide? And there's actually been, uh, reported sightings of this guy, uh, Michael de Guzman, uh, back in, in Canada. And also he well, that was the other thing. After he died, they they notified his family of his death. And it turns out he had a family plus three extra secret families on the side, none of whom knew about each other. Right. And then one of those, one of the widows, one of the three widows that he had said that her [00:38:00] maid received a phone call and from him from Michael de Guzman after he died saying that he was going to deposit like $150,000 into her bank account, and then $150,000 got deposited into her bank account. But none of this is corroborated. Nobody can trace this all back. And and he was officially by both the the gosh. And again I'm going to screw this up. It was either was it Malaysia or Indonesia that had [00:38:30] a big chunk of Borneo. I can't remember, but whatever the local government was was their official diagnosis, whatever their official conclusion was that it was a suicide. The Canadian Royal Mounted Police went out there because of their involvement in it. They also determined that it was a suicide. So officially, Michael de Guzman is dead. But it sort of seems like it might also be a guy who has four families. Michael Ball.

Caleb Newquist: There. Michael de Guzman truthers [00:39:00] out there.

Greg Kyte: Exactly, exactly. Which is exciting. And that's fun. That is kind of exciting.

Caleb Newquist: What an.

Greg Kyte: Amazing case. I love that case. What episode was that again? 38.

Caleb Newquist: 38.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. 38.

Caleb Newquist: So, Greg. So what I think what what what hasn't been said here is that Greg really doesn't have any, you know, favorite episodes from the past 12 months. Everything goes back much, much farther. When he was maybe, maybe enjoying the podcast a bit more.

Greg Kyte: Oh, Jesus. No, that's absolutely false. Well.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, okay. Okay. So do you have a do you have an [00:39:30] episode that you liked from this past year?

Greg Kyte: Yes I do. I loved the sheriff of Frodingham the story, the most recent.

Caleb Newquist: One as of this recording.

Greg Kyte: Our most recent was that the most recent one. It was the.

Caleb Newquist: Last. It was the last one. Yeah. That dropped. It was the last one that dropped in December. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. But but we also talked about this where like, right after we do a case, we're like, that was awesome. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: And just because it's like, true.

Greg Kyte: Because we have so many great ones. But but but yeah, the Jamie Noel case was fantastic because he had he [00:40:00] had a reality TV show. Yeah. Where he was trying to, he was trying to get all the corrupt. So he was elected county sheriff in Indiana.

Caleb Newquist: Very meta. Very meta case. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: He was trying to get.

Caleb Newquist: He was trying to get the corruption out of the jail system. And yet he was incredibly and deeply corrupt.

Greg Kyte: Right, exactly. And so, yeah. And and he was, he was, uh, he was stealing. So he stole. He stole a decent amount from the from the jail, actually. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: The county. Yep. Yeah. The county commissary. [00:40:30] Yeah.

Greg Kyte: But but his main. So pushing $1 million that he stole from the commissary at the jail. But his. But he stole almost $3 million from the volunteer fire department that he was also at the same time he was sheriff. He was the he was the head of this volunteer fire department and stole almost $3 million from that which you go, okay, that you don't you I mean, everybody knows you don't steal from fire departments. That's [00:41:00] unless you do the worst things that you can do. And it's a pretty bad thing.

Caleb Newquist: You can do.

Greg Kyte: Oh, it's. Yeah. It's pretty. It's up there. It's it's up there. You know, let's not steal from widows and let's not steal from fire departments. That's kind of I kind of.

Caleb Newquist: Leaving out the orphans, I.

Greg Kyte: See. I mean, orphans, they're young, they can fend for themselves, but the widows and the fire departments. But then what makes this awesome is, is when he gets caught, that one of the one of the juicy details and again, salacious details from the case is once he's caught in there unpacking, [00:41:30] well, first off, after he gets caught, the the fire department had such little oversight, they never canceled his credit cards. He was just charging stuff on his credit cards. They never cancel him. So even after he's arrested, he and his family still like they bought another $30,000 worth of stuff on the on the, uh, volunteer fire department credit card. But then also they're unpacking. Like, what? He's what he's spent. Which which. Caleb, you got to say, that's one of our favorite thing about the podcast is just the the enumeration [00:42:00] of what these people spent their Oh, yeah. On. And one of the things that came out is that this guy, Sheriff Jamey Noel, while he was a sheriff, he had an affair with a a county councilwoman in the county where he was sheriff. They had an illegitimate child together, and he was court ordered to pay child support for his illegitimate child. He had with the county council officer. And he stole money. Part [00:42:30] of his money he stole from the volunteer fire department. He used to pay his child support for his child, which is just. That's where. And all of a sudden, it went from a fraud case to like, a freaking soap opera with that and.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Which, yeah. I mean, again, you know, you take a step back and you go, all of that's horrible. But when you're in the bleachers, you go kind of delightfully horrible. Um, but also, it's also fun to know that the dude spent $50,000 [00:43:00] on cigars, and he also got like a hooter's DoorDash to him on the card. It's like you go, okay.

Caleb Newquist: Hooters, Hooters and waffle House. Those two things were like.

Greg Kyte: Classy.

Caleb Newquist: Right? Hooters and waffle House were specifically mentioned, which I am so, so grateful for. Yeah. Send. And yeah, those. That's the stuff that, uh, that that keeps it interesting, by the way. Sheriff of Frodingham, uh, is episode 76. So we just released it a [00:43:30] couple weeks ago, and it's a good one. It's a good one. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: And I'd say I mean, there's so many. I mean, we also there was the Eddie Tipton case. He was the, uh.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, the lottery.

Greg Kyte: The the lottery fraud, which that was that was earlier this year. It was, if I remember what what do you have that episode.

Caleb Newquist: That's episode that is episode 55.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. So, so, so much fun with that because, uh, because again, it was just this it there was so, so many intriguing things about that. [00:44:00] Uh, that not the least of which was the fact that Bigfoot hunters played a significant role in the in the story. Uh, so that's always going to have a special place for me. And then another I mean, then if we're just looking at the podcast at large. Um, so the one, the one fraudster that we were actually able to interview was a guy named Nathan Mueller. His fraud's not very. It's not like a big, well-known, publicized fraud, but he's talked so much about he [00:44:30] stole $8 million from the insurance giant ING. Am I getting. Am I I ING that up as I got it right this time? You got it right. Um, even though I've talked about this case 100,000 times, I always screw up who he worked for. Um, but but. So we did the case. That was one of our one of our early episodes was the the case about his fraud. And then later, we actually got to interview the guy who perpetrated that fraud. And it was so fascinating to actually hear him recount [00:45:00] his fraud and to talk to him about how he felt, what he was thinking, what he was doing. He was. And again, another guy who was just great. He was great at his job, which is why they trusted him so much and didn't micromanage him. And that's how he stole all his money. But also, I don't know if you remember this. He said he had detailed spreadsheets about exactly how much he stole and when he stole it and how he did it. And he was like, yeah, the FBI really liked that about me. Uh, so, [00:45:30] yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Um, let's see. So the original episode, episode four, that was.

Greg Kyte: Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Was the Nathan Mueller case when we originally did that story, but then we interviewed him for episode 28, so. Yeah, go check those out. Those are Greg's. Those are Greg's favorites. Yep. Um, that's. There's some good ones in there.

Greg Kyte: Greg, did you do you have some favorites from 2024? If we're just doing a year in review kind of stuff. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: If we're doing, I would say there's let me think Here. Um. Yeah. So the Stanford [00:46:00] Ponzi scheme, the Stanford Financial Group Ponzi scheme, it's one of our most popular episodes. Um, that case is it's ongoing, which is quite remarkable. Um, in fact, there's a link in the show notes to one of the most recent news stories about it, which is that there are still victims of that Ponzi scheme that are trying to get, uh, some of their money back and some have waited so long and are in such need of liquidity that they have sold the rights [00:46:30] to their future payouts. And, um, which is weird.

Greg Kyte: I didn't even know that was a thing.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, sure. Yeah. It's kind of like distressed assets, right?

Greg Kyte: Yeah, it makes sense that it is a thing. I just didn't know it was.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. And so there there's a link to that story in the show notes just from a couple of months ago. Um, but that Stanford case is long and complicated, and it was extremely well covered at the time. And to this day, it's still like it's it's still a hilarious and kind of fascinating but ultimately devastating case. [00:47:00]

Greg Kyte: Well, and even with those people, I thought that was the big kicker with them, is that they they sold they sold low. And now there might actually be a settlement. Right. You had you had more of the like, do you remember the details about that where like they sold they sold their, you know, their future things for $0.10. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: They were selling they were selling their payouts for, you know, like 50,000, $60,000. And now that the that the claims that the claims ultimately might be paid out by the, [00:47:30] by the bankruptcy trustee, uh, they would have been eligible for something like 4 or 5 times that, so like 300, 300,000, $400,000.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Wow.

Caleb Newquist: And so, yeah, that's kind of that's kind of gut wrenching. Um, but Stanford, Allen, Stanford as a, as a, as a perpetrator could not be more, uh, flamboyant and, uh, Unlikable and ridiculous and hilarious. And so, yeah, if you if you want to go back to episode 54, [00:48:00] you can check out Stanford Financial Group. I also really liked talking to Dan Simons and Chris Chabris. Those were the two psychologists we talked to. That's episode 60. They had a they have a new book out. Um, those guys, I don't know, we, we hadn't had psychologists on before. And so that was really fun. And those guys. That was fun because those guys were just like, I don't know, very for for very like high minded academics. They're just very down to earth. And yeah, they really did an excellent job of explaining the psychology behind [00:48:30] why we are all, uh, potential victims of fraud. No matter. No matter, uh, if we fancy ourselves to be savvy and and and and too smart to be fooled. Um, it's actually, uh, we're actually all marks. We're all walking around just waiting to be waiting to be ripped off. Greg.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, well. And it's. And it's so funny because I. Well, wasn't pig butchering. That was this year too, wasn't it?

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. So the pig butchering. So that was another one that was um, that was, uh, episode 64 and that was about the the bank in [00:49:00] Kansas, in small town, small town in Kansas. Um, and that was a pig butchering scam, which is, which has been in the news. Pig butchering has been in the news for the last year or two. And that was that was a case of where a CEO, uh, got caught up in a pig butchering scam, and he ultimately took the money from his own bank, uh, to cover his.

Greg Kyte: Losses, to.

Caleb Newquist: Try to figure it out. And it did not work.

Greg Kyte: But the reason why the reason why that connected with the the interview of the the two guys who wrote the book. Uh, was that that he's the president [00:49:30] of a bank? He if anybody should be financially savvy enough to avoid an investment scam, you would think it would be the president of a bank, right? But also, I remember even some of the research we did for that case, there was there was many people who were like, I should not have been, I was I did all the research that I felt like I should have to make sure this was legit, and it still was not legit. So I think it kind of underscores [00:50:00] the tell me their names again. The guys who wrote the book, I can never.

Caleb Newquist: Dan Simons. Dan Simons and Chris Chabris.

Greg Kyte: Chabris. Yeah. Yeah. So, so kind of underscores their point that we're all marks, and no one is immune from becoming a victim of fraud. Uh, regardless of how savvy you think you are. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: So and the the update on that story, I don't I don't think at the time that we released that, um, the story about the Kansas bank that the sentence for, [00:50:30] um, that CEO was known, but because it just came out a few, uh, just a couple of months ago. But he was sentenced to 24 years in prison. And like, they I mean, they really threw the book at him. Well, and it's but rightly so. I mean, it's yeah, he made some bad choices. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Bad choices.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Take cut. Take your losses. Take your lumps. Don't steal from the bank that you run. That's right. I feel like that's simple, but. But also. Yeah, I don't know. Wasn't that an FDIC [00:51:00] thing too? Where they cover it was so. Okay, so maybe I don't know. That's a hard. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: What else? Couple more updates that I think people will appreciate. Uh the so the Jacksonville. So a lot of people know this story. But it was episode 62 and it's the story of a Jacksonville Jaguars, the NFL team. Uh, they had an employee that somebody that worked in their finance department who, uh, was a was very bad at gambling, very, very bad at gambling, addicted [00:51:30] to gambling. I shouldn't say it wasn't that he had no skills. He he had a disease or has a disease. Um, and he stole millions and millions of dollars from the football team to fund his gambling addiction.

Greg Kyte: Right. The argument could be made that everyone's bad at gambling.

Caleb Newquist: Yes, well, that's the that's that is that is the hope, right? If you run, if you run a casino, the hope is that all your customers are bad at gambling.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. I don't live too far from Las Vegas. I've been there a lot. Every single casino is a [00:52:00] monument to losers. So there are. Drive down the strip and become convinced that everyone's bad at.

Caleb Newquist: Gambling, right? Yeah. The Mecca, the Mecca of. Of losers. Yes, yes, that's well said, Greg. Well said. That's that's work that into your stand up. That's okay. That's an excellent bit. Okay.

Greg Kyte: Hold on. Let me write that down. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: But yeah. So this his name is Amit Patel. Uh, and the kind of the update [00:52:30] there is that because he, he, uh. What? I don't remember. Let me see if I can find how many years he's doing. Uh, yes, he was sentenced. So, uh, Amit was sentenced to six and a half years in prison. Um, however, the big update and I think we covered that at the time. But the big update is that he is suing FanDuel. Okay. He is suing the website that he lost all this money to. Right.

Greg Kyte: And [00:53:00] and isn't the argument you guys made me addicted to gambling? So this is your fault?

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Essentially, yes. And he's and he's he's seeking $250 million in in damages. Yeah. And so, um. Wow. I, I, you know, I don't think the law is on his side in this case, although ultimately, I'm kind of rooting for him to. Right. Because I don't want to see any more FanDuel commercials on TV. I just don't. Okay. Right. So it. Part [00:53:30] of me is rooting for him to win, but I just I don't think he's going to win.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, well, I think I mean, personally, I feel like all of those online gambling, like sports gambling sites, I feel like they are a plague on society. And if they get if he wins the case that I can't imagine anything except those all shutting down. Because then everyone who's lost money will go. Oh me too. Yeah. Me too. Pay me too. Yeah, it'll be like precedent will be set.

Caleb Newquist: It'll be. It'll be like. It'll [00:54:00] be like the cigarette companies in the 90s, right? Like everybody will be coming for them, so you know. Best of luck with your lawsuit, Amit. I hope you I hope you win. I don't think you will, but I hope you win. So there's there's stuff to be read. There's stuff to be read in the in the in the show notes. There's a great article in the show notes from The Athletic that will tell you all the details. Uh, but yeah. So we'll we'll keep an eye on that, I think. Finally, finally. And this is very fresh, very fresh update. [00:54:30] Um, as you may or may not be aware, uh, President Biden, uh, pardoned an enormous number of people. Right. Not just not just Hunter. Yeah, not just Hunter. Yeah. Um, around 1500 people were granted clemency or pardons in a big, sweeping, uh, action that our our presidents have. You know, that it is something that they have the power to do. And, uh, in that particular [00:55:00] act of clemency, one of the people that benefited from that act of clemency was Rita Crundwell, the perpetrator of the Dixon, Illinois, fraud of $54 million. And we had lots of people reach us, reach out to us about this. And lots of people are understandably angry. But also, I maybe not completely up to date on this story. Uh, Rita was released from prison during the pandemic. She was serving house arrest to the best of my best of my knowledge, she [00:55:30] was under house arrest. Um, had, you know, very limited, like, comings and goings and part of what, uh, the act of clemency was this this particular pardon slash clemency was that people that had been sentenced to house arrest. They were basically like they lifted the house arrest on these people. And so, um, whether or not you think that Rita Crundwell deserves to be able to walk freely amongst the rest of us or not, is is a it's a very it's a very spirited debate, Greg. Like, [00:56:00] there's a lot of people that have strong feelings about this case, but.

Greg Kyte: For sure.

Caleb Newquist: Nevertheless Rita Crundwell has been she she was the benefit of, uh, of um, of clemency. And so, uh, her, her, her debt to society, whether you agree with it or not, has been paid.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Well, and and I, I'm confident. Well and again, maybe we maybe this didn't actually get into an episode, but we did have an a, a update on Rita earlier where when she was released [00:56:30] on house arrest, she returned to Dixon, Illinois.

Caleb Newquist: Yes.

Greg Kyte: Which is like that's because I think that the the thought is that's the only place she's got family, right, that she could, like, bunk up with while she's getting back. So how awkward is that? Where it's like, hey, I got out of jail and I'm back to the city that I stole $54 million from. Hey, why is nobody sitting with me at church? Uh, so that that kind of, I mean, you know.

Caleb Newquist: Scenario if you if you, if you, if you do the online services [00:57:00] and you get you get you get Instacart, you know, so you get the groceries delivered. I mean, you can do it, Greg. You can be you can be completely.

Greg Kyte: No no no no no no. I'm sure that Instacart has your name on the receipt and you are never going to DoorDash food because there someone is going to spit in your food. Guaranteed. They're like, here, here's, here's, here's here's a little justice for you. And that's that's the, uh, that's DoorDash. Justice is what that is. [00:57:30]

Caleb Newquist: Uh, so.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, you're you're just. Yeah. But again, I don't know. I don't know how I it's all this stuff is comical until till you really start thinking about it. I mean, that must suck for Rita to be where she is. Yeah. And again, you know you reap what you sow. Karma's a bitch. So maybe if you steal $54 million, you're punishment was partly jail. And partly you have to go back to Dixon, Illinois to to face your your [00:58:00] accusers every day.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. I mean, that is it is it is, um, uh, it's it is a mix of like the feelings that I have are, are very ambivalent. Yeah, they're very mixed. And I guess, like to kind of wrap this up like you wanted to. You mentioned earlier, it's like the notion of justice in these cases. So the CEO of the Kansas bank, his name is Sean Hayes, [00:58:30] and he was sentenced to 24 years. And he was he himself was a victim of a crime. And then he turned around and committed a crime in order to make good on his massive, massive screw up. Now. It is very difficult, I think, for most people to be empathetic in this situation.

Greg Kyte: It's difficult for me to be empathetic in this situation.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, but like but I when Greg, you told a great story, uh, [00:59:00] in that episode of how you had made a screw up at work and that it still bothers you to this day, and it was a, uh, by comparison, a very small amount of money. Yes. And in this case, we're talking about a bank that had over $40 million in assets. And the assets are are gone. Now, the depositors were insured, right. So that's the good news. The depositors were able to get their money back, but the owners of the bank were not. So that included [00:59:30] Sean Hayes. He he was he was an owner of the bank. But there were also lots of community members in that small community in Kansas who were also investors in their bank, their money, their investments are gone. Like it's you're talking about millions of dollars, people's, you know, chunk of people's savings. And so, you know, like they're victims too. And so like that's the mix of the of the of the both, uh, kind of the, the part of me that feels sorry for him, but also saying, [01:00:00] dude, you. Two wrongs don't make a right. Right, right. My parents started saying that to me when I was five years old or whenever, whenever I can remember it. And it's just like the guy just must have felt like he had no other choice. Or he when he realized what he was doing, like when he realized that he had been had he was just desperate. And when people are desperate, they do incredibly dumb things. Yeah, incredibly dumb things.

Greg Kyte: Absolutely.

Caleb Newquist: And so I think it goes back to [01:00:30] another. So it goes back to Kelly Richmond Pope, who had said to us early in that episode, which is everybody is capable of this, right? You put any person in a, in a, in a particular set of circumstances, and they are likely to do the same thing. And like I've said before, I used to think I didn't used to believe that. But the more and more of these cases I do, the more and more I believe. No. That's right. Yeah. We're all we're all capable of doing this given the right set of circumstances. And that's, I [01:01:00] don't know, 24 years, 24 years in prison for that guy. He probably won't serve all 24 years. Right. But at the same time, like, he's gonna he's gonna spend some time in jail, away from his family, away from his friends.

Greg Kyte: I've got to assume if you're a president of a bank, you're not a young guy. 24 years might be the rest of your time. The rest of your earth time. Yeah. All in jail. So that's that's difficult. Also, just to clarification, I didn't steal anything from my work. That wasn't my mistake. We write. We signed. I [01:01:30] signed a contract with a commercial realtor where he had hooks in our business forever, and that came back to bite me in the ass. I did not different. Different mistakes, different different categories of mistakes.

Caleb Newquist: I did it really way. The way I explained that to that make it sound like that you had.

Greg Kyte: Stolen money at a minute. For a minute. There is kind of like, this guy also made a mistake and it was, I have to say, different, different mistakes. Just so wouldn't.

Caleb Newquist: That have been just the best capstone to your time on this podcast? [01:02:00]

Greg Kyte: So this is my one my one phone call is this this episode? I am in jail. Uh, and and.

Caleb Newquist: And that's and that's the big twist at the end of Greg's time on the.

Greg Kyte: Podcast. Exactly.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. I'm in jail for, uh, for fraud.

Greg Kyte: For fraud? Yep. Didn't I guess I didn't learn anything? Nope. Not not not to not to do it and not to how to do it. I just am. I'm. I'm useless. So. All [01:02:30] right, that's it for this episode. And remember, if you turn me down for an interview, I won't be sore about it. Not at all. Toby. Curtsinger. I'll just never think about it again.

Caleb Newquist: And also, remember, your sweet abs won't save you.

Greg Kyte: Hey, if you want to drop us a line, send us an email at oh my fraud@earmarks.com. Caleb I'll still be copied on those emails for a minute, right?

Caleb Newquist: I'm sure.

Greg Kyte: You will. Or will security [01:03:00] take away my password on my way out?

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. You know, I'm not really in charge, but if I had it my way, you'd get them forever. I still want your inbox to cause you anxiety, I think is what I'm saying to you.

Greg Kyte: Nice. It's easy, it's easy. I think it's going to be easy for me to just skim them and. And file them with my. I have a, I have a file in my Gmail for all of my, all my fraud correspondence. So it's all there. Um, but, Caleb, if people want to contact you and exclude me, uh, where can people find you? Out on the internet.

Caleb Newquist: Linkedin [01:03:30] Slash Caleb Newquist. That's where I'm at, Greg. Uh, how can people get Ahold of you when they want to tell you that the podcast was much better when you were on it?

Greg Kyte: Well, first off, knock it off. Uh, second of all. Uh LinkedIn. Okay. So. Yeah. And and, I mean, good news, I actually have been on LinkedIn. I did a couple of posts, I dropped a couple Christmas cartoons you did on LinkedIn, and I cleared my DMs. And the funny thing is, [01:04:00] uh, not a whole lot of people are interested in chatting with me on LinkedIn. I don't feel like there was a lot of people I was just leaving in the lurch, so.

Caleb Newquist: Okay, there you have it, folks. Uh, folks, uh, Greg will not be on LinkedIn now.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, Greg.

Caleb Newquist: Probably six months.

Greg Kyte: Greg Kite, who suffers from depression, checks his inbox and LinkedIn and finds depression justified.

Caleb Newquist: Oh man, oh, man. Greg, you want to read us out?

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Uh oh. My [01:04:30] fraud is written by Caleb Newquist and me. Greg Kite, our producer is the wonderful Zach Frank. If you like the show, please leave us a review or share it with a friend. It helps people find the podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Tinder, wherever you listen to podcasts. And for the accountants out there, if you listen to the podcast on earmark, you can earn free CPE credit. It's a new year. Don't procrastinate. Do it right now. Uh, and join us next time [01:05:00] for more. Join Caleb next time for more. Oh, no, I guess it's still join us. I guess I did the outro on that one.

Caleb Newquist: You'll you'll be joining us for a couple episodes. You'll join us.

Greg Kyte: For a couple episodes of avarice, swindlers and scams from stories that will make you say, oh my fraud.

Caleb Newquist: My fraud.