There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Caleb Newquist: Oh my fraud listeners. Hello. This is a bonus episode. Uh oh. My fraud at the movies. And I'm here with the producer of the On My Fraud podcast, Zack Frank. Hello, Zack.

Zach Frank: Hello, Caleb. Hi, everyone.

Caleb Newquist: So we're we're doing this. We're going to try this, right?

Zach Frank: Yeah, we're giving it a shot.

Caleb Newquist: We're [00:00:30] giving it a shot. So, anyway, um, Zack and I have spent a lot of time talking about movies. Um, of all kinds. Um, and we had this idea for. Oh, I don't know, we thought we would maybe do a podcast, but then, I mean, I don't know, we we kind of recorded something and then it didn't really work out. And so it's kind of a long story. We won't get into it. But in any case we thought, oh, this is something in in the Post-gregg era, right. This is this is something that we're going to try and it's just a bonus episode, so [00:01:00] no big deal. But we hope you like it. Because we like we like movies and we like and we and we like talking about them. And so we thought we'd watch some movies that are about frauds or maybe have accountants in them or something, and we thought we'd talk about them. See if the movies are good, if they're like, close to real life. I don't know, Zach. Is that is that pretty much it?

Zach Frank: Yeah, that's basically it. We just want to analyze, you know? Yeah. Movies with accounting with some fraud, how realistic they are. Some might be based on real stories, some might be fiction. But, you know, take a look at all of them.

Caleb Newquist: Write, write, write as many [00:01:30] as. And of course, if you're listening and you're like, oh, you guys got to talk about this. If you like this and you want to, you know, give us some ideas, send us an email. Oh my fraud earmark@earmark.com. Anyway, okay, enough with all that. It's very loose. Can you tell? Feels very loose. Uh, so our first movie is The Informant. Zach, had you seen this? Had you seen this?

Zach Frank: I had seen this, but probably 15 years ago. I ago. I want to say I probably saw this a [00:02:00] year after it, like.

Caleb Newquist: When it came out close to when it came out. Yeah. I, I just, I was, I just, I just watched it and I do not and Katie said my wife, she goes, she's like we've seen this. I'm like have we. I just couldn't remember. And so I mean, I remember when it came out, I was in the I would think I was living in New York at the time and I think I don't, I don't necessarily remember what else was going on, but I just remember I remember seeing this movie and I thought it looked funny and it is funny. Um, for if you haven't seen it, it is, it [00:02:30] is. It's classified as what, a dark comedy, right.

Zach Frank: Yep.

Caleb Newquist: And did you, would you would you call it that?

Zach Frank: Um, yeah. For sure.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Zach Frank: I felt like the same type of vibe as a Burn After Reading. Have you ever seen the Coen brothers?

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Um, anyway, uh, we're gonna read the logline, right? You want me to do that?

Zach Frank: So just give some background on the movie. So The informant is a 2009 Steven Soderbergh film that stars Matt Damon as Mark Whitacre. So now if you read the logline, give people the plot. [00:03:00]

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. So the logline is the US government decides to go after an agro business giant with a price fixing accusation based on the evidence submitted by their star witness, vice president turned informant, Mark Whitacre. Um, yeah. And they kind of it gets into that pretty quick. Um, we're going to talk about you want should we get into the plot a little bit?

Zach Frank: Yeah. But before we get into that. Yeah, just just a quick like disclaimer, this film is based on a true story. [00:03:30] And as far as the light research that I did, it seems like it was pretty accurate. But if we get something wrong, we are analyzing the movie. Yeah, we're.

Caleb Newquist: Talking.

Zach Frank: About life events. So don't like. Hold that.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, okay. Disclaimer noted. Um, what did you think? Did you like it? Did you like the movie?

Zach Frank: Yeah, I thought it was really entertaining, you know?

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Zach Frank: I remember when it came out that a lot of people were disappointed in it, and I think that came from people expecting it to be more like Ocean's [00:04:00] 11, Ocean's 12, Ocean's 13, you know, Matt Damon with Steven Soderbergh. Their other films would be like action packed, and it's going to be like a really funny. I remember the trailers, I it's so funny. My memory of this movie is nonexistent, almost like if you'd asked me about it. I know I've seen it. Um, but I wouldn't have been able to tell you much about it. And, uh, rewatching it, I feel like that was because it was, you know. Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't an exceptional movie, but it's entertaining. I enjoyed it this time, but I feel like the first time I watched it, it was just like, yeah, you know, it was what it is, what it is.

Caleb Newquist: Right? I think [00:04:30] the trailer, I don't know, this happens with all kinds of movies, but you'll watch a trailer and you'll be like, oh, I kind of want to see that. And then you see the actual movie and you're like, oh, they kind of they cut a better trailer.

Zach Frank: Oh yeah.

Caleb Newquist: They did a movie. But this movie is still good. Like, I just think there was something. I just remember watching the trailers and thinking, oh yeah, I definitely want to watch that. And then you're right, it's it's entertaining Meaning, and it's a good story and it's got a huge cast, like [00:05:00] there's all kinds of cool people in it. And Soderbergh is a great director. Um, but yeah, it is. It kind of just doesn't land as like a movie that people are rushing out to see.

Zach Frank: Nope. And I guess, you know, even though at this point Matt Damon is definitely a household name, he'd been in all the Bourne movies. He'd been in all the ocean movies. He's a household name at this point. He's a star.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. When did the Bourne movies start? I don't even.

Zach Frank: I think 2001 was Bourne Identity. Oh, wow.

Caleb Newquist: So you're right.

Zach Frank: And I think they all. I think all three of them. Sorry. I guess I ended up making four with him, but, uh, that was like a whatever. Eight years [00:05:30] later, I think all three of the main ones had come out by this point.

Caleb Newquist: Okay. Gotcha. All right. Yeah.

Zach Frank: Um, so, yeah, I guess also. Yeah, plot wise. But then also something before we get into the plot is, uh, a device that this movie uses that I think is pretty cool and that's like that of an unreliable narrator, which obviously we don't know at first, but, um, you know, Mark is the narrator for this whole time. He's telling us what's going on, but we learn pretty quickly that we cannot quite trust him.

Caleb Newquist: Right? Yeah. And his and I love one of the things that I liked about it was [00:06:00] I liked the kind of interior monologue that he does because it it is it it is really like this guy is it is basically the inside of his brain. And he is he's just talking about all kinds of different things. Um, I don't even I can't I don't even know if I jotted down any examples.

Zach Frank: He talks about how much he hates wool, depending on what the world is. It's a random one.

Caleb Newquist: That's right. It's like, I don't like the feeling of wool on my on the skin, but. Yeah. And, um. Yeah. So he's [00:06:30] a straight away. This guy, Mark Whitaker, is a quirky guy and, uh, you know, not eccentric, but peculiar. And it gets right into it. Like, right away they, they establish that he works at this place called Archer Daniels Midland, which is a real company. Um, and it's in Illinois. It's in rural Illinois. And he's driving his kid and there's cornfields around. And, you know, he's clearly successful right out of the gate because he's driving a Porsche or something. [00:07:00] Yeah. And it kind of bounces in between his monologue that's in his brain, which is basically his just interior monologue. And then like the, you know, his life working at ADM, um, as this he's a biochemist, but he's a vice president of some kind. He's he's an executive of some kind, and he's going to all these meetings and I don't know, it's all very kind of businessy, but also very Midwest, Midwestern like Biff, Biff Tannen shows up. Did you notice that?

Zach Frank: Yes.

Caleb Newquist: The guy [00:07:30] the guy who plays Biff Tannen has a small role in the film, and there's lots of people that have small roles in it. But like when I saw him like, oh my God, that's Biff. Like what? There he is. Um, but anyway, it gets into the story pretty quick.

Zach Frank: It does. So another thing about this film is that Marvin Hamlisch did the music. He's famous for writing the music to A Chorus Line. Yep. He also did a few of the James Bond scores. He even is a Egot winner. And even though the movie takes place in the 90s, it has a 70s feel. Yeah, and I think it fits the movie really well. The music?

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, really [00:08:00] really, really well, I agree that's something that I noticed right away is like, oh, this is some groovy music that is going on with the 90s haircuts and the 90s suits. Like, like the the ties were like, like paisley and like weird, like kind of floral patterns. And then the suits were kind of big. And like, Matt Damon's wig in this movie is fantastic. Like it's.

Zach Frank: Agreed.

Caleb Newquist: It's just it's just it's great. And he has a mustache. [00:08:30] And I mean, the whole thing is it the the 90s vibe? The look of it is definitely 90s. But you're right, the music I didn't I didn't place the music, really. I just kind of thought I liked it and I thought it fit the movie well. But you're right, it does kind of have that groove, that 70s kind of groove to it. Um, but anyway, all together, it like, it all works, you know, it doesn't feel. It doesn't feel like, you know, you know, like it's juxtaposed like these. There's these two weird things that don't belong together. No. It all it all works.

Zach Frank: Yeah. [00:09:00] So, yeah, let's get into the plot, I guess. So we learn early on that at this company. Well, again, unreliable narrator. But Matt Damon tells us that lysine, which is an amino acid that's in corn, or they purposely add it to corn to help, like feed is, um, it's dying faster than it should be for a batch of corn. It's killing the corn, and it's not supposed to be. Right. That's what we learn early on. Uh, and it's causing a problem. Because obviously, if this doesn't get produced, then farmers can't feed their cows or whatever, and then they can't grow [00:09:30] as much of it. And it's all it basically becomes a huge issue, right? We learned that very early on. It's what he tells us now, Matt Damon, instead of admitting to this problem and being like, hey, we have an issue. I don't know what bug or what is killing this decides that or sorry, I should say, Mark, I don't want to refer to him as his acting name. Mark decides that, uh, he's going to lie and pretend that they are being blackmailed, and that a Japanese competitor is purposely poisoning their crop up in order to blackmail [00:10:00] them for $10 million.

Caleb Newquist: Right. And the guy he is talking to has got. This character is named Mick Andreas, but is played by the comedian Tom Papa, which this is before I knew when I first maybe when I saw this movie a long time ago, I would have known who Tom Papa is. But now I know who Tom Papa is. He's a very funny comedian, and like Tom, Papa is very good in this movie. I have to say. Like like straight away. Like the first scene that he's in. I don't know if we can get the clip for it, but like the first scene that Tom Papa [00:10:30] is in, he's like, he's all like, keyed up and he's cursing at him and stuff, and he's like, we got to get this. He's like, I don't even know. I can't do the line. But like, it's so it's so funny. And, um, Tom Papa doesn't. He hasn't done a ton of acting, I don't think, but he, I thought he was very good in this. But right away you get the sense of like, oh, this is a high pressure situation. And like Mark, you know Matt Damon's character is he's he's he's definitely under pressure like right away. So tying this back into the regular [00:11:00] podcast though, my fraud stuff is that.

Zach Frank: That.

Caleb Newquist: Fraud somebody here's somebody some that like Mark is Mark the pressure piece of a fraud triangle is definitely present in.

Zach Frank: Yep. In fact he says he says the line, um, I think that the line is there, the 44th, um, fortune 500 company and they can't drop to the 45th.

Caleb Newquist: Yep. That's right. Yeah, absolutely.

Film Clip: We're number 44 on the fortune 500 list. Mark, I don't want this turning us into number 45. Fix [00:11:30] it.

Caleb Newquist: And, um, he mentions his dad, so there's, like, some nepotism, so that right away. I don't like Mick. Right? Like, he's like, oh, he's a like, oh, his dad's in charge. Great. You know, and it's like, and and there's a little bit of a surprise later as to who his dad is, but, um, but yeah. So that kind of kicks things off and then right away.

Zach Frank: They're going to call the FBI to get them involved in this.

Caleb Newquist: Right. Because it's like it's it's it's it's it's it's, uh, extortion or whatever. Like there's there's some kind of, you know, [00:12:00] there's international bribery or something happening. And right away, yeah, they want to get the authorities involved.

Zach Frank: And the reason that this is shocking to Mark and that they just didn't pay the $10 million demand, is because what we will soon find out is that his own company is involved in a legal scheme of price fixing. Right. With a bunch of different competitors. So it's almost like, would you call the police to help you with a flat tire? If you have a dead body in the trunk? Why are you inviting the police and the FBI to your doorstep? You know, when you have your own skeletons in [00:12:30] your closet. So it's just pretty shocking that they were so quick to get the FBI involved in this case so very quickly. Mark's wife finds out what's going on, and she tells him, you have to tell the FBI about what's really going on. And this is when he first reveals about the price fixing scheme and we first hear about it.

Film Clip: Are you going to say something, or am I? Brian.

Film Clip: Hey. Got a minute?

Caleb Newquist: His wife, who's played by played by Melanie Lynskey. But she says, hey, you got to talk to him because you know, about, you know, the stuff that's going on. [00:13:00] And so he does. And he tells, um, uh, one of the agents guy, um, uh, Agent Brian Shepard, and he tells played by Scott Bakula and fantastic.

Zach Frank: And he's great.

Caleb Newquist: He is good. Yeah. And, um, he that that starts him, like, as this informant for the FBI on this price fixing scheme that ADM is a part of.

Film Clip: This involves price fixing in the lysine business. Now, I have been in several [00:13:30] meetings with our Japanese and Korean competitors over the last few months, where the sole purpose was to fix the prices. Adm made me go to those meetings. See, that's why they wanted me to lie.

Caleb Newquist: But they are kind of, uh, suspicious of his motives And pretty quickly you come to find out that Mark definitely sees himself as the good guy. Like, he he he knows that, um, Adam is doing something wrong. [00:14:00] They're telling him to do it, and he wants. He he wants to, you know, he he wants he doesn't want to do it. And he thinks it's wrong, and and that's what he starts. And that's what he kind of he, he holds himself out as kind of the do gooder in this.

Zach Frank: Situation that he thinks he's going to be rewarded for it multiple times throughout the movie. He says, you know, I think after this, I'm going to be CEO. Who else are they going to turn to?

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, there's.

Zach Frank: Become CEO of the company.

Caleb Newquist: I mean, that's I mean, there's [00:14:30] several scenes. There's one scene. Um, I'm trying to think. I think it's with the FBI agents, but yeah, there's just a couple of scenes where he is talking about. He's like, I think I'm going to be fine about this, though. They'll have no choice but to ask me to run the company. And the people he's talking to are just like, look at each other like, oh, he doesn't know what's gonna happen.

Zach Frank: Yeah, yeah. Delusional.

Caleb Newquist: He doesn't know what's about to hit him. And those moments are those moments are pretty funny. And, um. But, yeah, he does kind of have this. He [00:15:00] is kind of naive about the, like, what is going to happen as a result of him being a whistleblower. Like, he just he for whatever reason, he doesn't get it.

Zach Frank: Yes. He's unaware.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. And that kind of reminds me of, um, a little bit of our conversation with Tony Menendez a little bit, because Tony was definitely you. Definitely. Tony was one of those guys where, you know, Tony didn't do anything wrong, right? So Mark was involved [00:15:30] in this case. Mark is involved in he's going to these meetings where they're meeting with the competitors and say, hey, this is what the price is going to be. And so he's saying he has to do that in Tony's case. Tony never did anything wrong. He saw stuff that he didn't agree with and he thought was wrong and said, hey, we can't do this, this is wrong. And I'm like, nah, we're gonna keep doing it. And then Tony, like, became a whistleblower in this case. It's it's a little more it's not clear, like you say, unreliable. Narrator. It isn't clear where Mark [00:16:00] first started. Maybe doing the wrong thing. And then he decided that, I guess, again, it was his wife who said, you gotta tell him. You know, you got to tell him that. What's what about, you know, what's going on. Um, but then. Yeah. And so then.

Zach Frank: We get into a little bit of what they were actually doing or price fixing is. I feel like it's probably pretty obvious to people, but should we describe it to anyone?

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah.

Zach Frank: All right. Yeah. So basically what they were doing is they were artificially I mean, they even talk about this. They were artificially, um, affecting the supply and demand of this [00:16:30] product, depending on, you know, if there was too much of it or whatever to, you know, to set a price. They also literally just decided, like, what the price should be for it and then, um, colluded with I think they mentioned Japan, Korea and in Great Britain. France there.

Caleb Newquist: Was a.

Zach Frank: French France. Was it okay?

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Zach Frank: At least three different global companies to all get together. And yeah, basically I don't know if they get into details before besides for the lysine, but I'm pretty sure it's happening with multiple chemicals and products. But um, yeah, basically making sure that [00:17:00] the market share allocation is like no one's undercutting each other. They all have like the market share that they want. They have a fixed price. Yeah. Um, they raise the price of lysine above its natural market value. Um, and they also, like I said, control the supply and demand side. So it's, uh, hitting it from a couple of different angles for that.

Caleb Newquist: Right. And it is at this time and they say this in one of the scenes, I think Scott Bakula says in one of the scenes where he's like, he's meeting with his, you know, superior superiors, Justice Department [00:17:30] superiors, and he's like, he's like, everybody's ripped. Everybody every, every, every, like person in America is ripped off by the end of breakfast. Breakfast? Yeah. Like everybody's a victim.

Zach Frank: Yeah. Yes. That's so that's something that we learn. I think that's how the movie opens. Right? One of the early things is Matt Damon's character. Mark tells us everything that lysine and corn is used for is used for the sweetener. It's corn sirup. It's used for this. It's in this. It's in this. It's like, yeah, it goes into everything. The corn business is big business. It's in everything.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, yeah. So, um, so that was pretty [00:18:00] good. And I think they do a good job. I think that the other thing that the movie does a good job of is it kind of takes this sleepy company like Archer Daniels Midland. I bet there's people listening. I don't know, maybe, maybe maybe our listeners know. But Archer Daniels is like, I it's not like some big flashy company. It's not like Facebook or Google or anything like that. Like, no, this is a this is an agricultural company. Right. And they and they, they work with farmers and they and they like you say they control the supply. It's [00:18:30] just one of those things that people just don't. At least they at least they didn't used to. Not in the 90s. They certainly didn't. But like, it's just one of those companies that people probably didn't even know existed, um, and didn't know that they were being impacted. And I think that's probably why the FBI was so interested in it because like, oh no, this is a big deal. And we can kind of like blow this up and and, you know, like, you know, bust a bad guy, a bad actor, a bad corporate actor. Yep. And, um, and so, yeah. And I [00:19:00] think that but what I was going to say was that the movie does a good job of kind of like explaining it in such a way.

Caleb Newquist: So you're just like, oh, I understand what's going on. You know, it isn't it isn't too complicated. Like there's sometimes when some of these scams, I don't know, movies don't always do a good job of explaining things when they're complex. Um, but this one does. This one does a pretty good job. And, uh, it's it's it's an easy thing to follow. Um, so, and it's kind of fun because he's, like, flying all over the world and having all these meetings [00:19:30] and, um, that's, that keeps that keeps the story moving. So you're just you're never kind of like getting you're not necessarily getting bored because he's always somewhere new. Talking to someone new, Meeting with the FBI in like the some of those scenes where like he's getting a page. So the FBI gives him a pager and the page and they say if this goes off, you need to call us. And like, so he would get these pages and he would be like he was in that one scene. He walked he's walking into Anheuser-Busch in Saint Louis, and he gets a page and he has to go use the pay [00:20:00] payphone. And he's like freaking out on the phone. Like, yeah, he's like, I'm I have to. People are waiting for me.

Caleb Newquist: I can't talk right now.

Caleb Newquist: And it's just like, he's getting straight. I mean, he gets he starts getting stressed out.

Zach Frank: They also give him a recording device to secretly record these meetings, uh, versus in his, uh, first, like on him. It's a wire. Then later in his briefcase. Yeah. They have some funny scenes, you know, who knows how realistic those are? Probably some artistic license, but, uh, you know, like, funny times. He has to, like, fix the battery, worry [00:20:30] about it, like, you know, almost breaking, like.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, yeah, he's in that one meeting. And when he when he does get that recording device that's, like, affixed to the inside of his briefcase. Yep. And it's like, rattling in the middle of the meeting. And he just opens it up, and he's, like, trying to fix it while they're all just basically having this price fixing meeting. And then there's another scene where they've got they've got a camera in the room and some guy, some Japanese guy's just sits down right in front of it, just the [00:21:00] back of his head. He's like, I think you'd be more comfortable over here. And like. And these FBI guys at this time in the movie, they're loving him like he's so good. They're like, oh, they think he's so great. And he's getting a kick out of it too. Like the there's that point.

Zach Frank: He's talking to himself walking into his office describing.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. And then he's like and then he's like and he's basically announcing who he's about to talk to. He's like, oh, this is the. He's like he's like, oh, that's uh, Kathy my secretary. And he's like, yeah. It's like what.

Zach Frank: The [00:21:30] vice president. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Zach Frank: Yeah. It's a great.

Film Clip: Entrance. Breached. Terrence Wilson, sin. President of our corn businesses. That was Terry Wilson talking about setting a volume and price levels with our Japanese competitor, Ajinomoto Corporation. By the way, there was no discussion with Miyamoto. Last night I did that for illustration purposes only. I repeat, no discussion with Mamodo. [00:22:00]

Film Clip: Good morning Mark.

Film Clip: Good morning, Liz Taylor Secretary.

Caleb Newquist: So. So now I don't know what what so kind of what happens next? I'm trying to think.

Zach Frank: I don't think we should talk about the raid now. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Okay.

Zach Frank: There you go. Um, so basically, the FBI gets enough evidence from the recording devices and from all the meetings that they decide, like, hey, we could get a warrant. We could raid the office, finally, of, um, of his company. And, uh, that reminds me of, in terms of my fraud cases, I think, [00:22:30] you know, there's two examples I can think of with the FBI showing up to raid. There might be more that we've talked about, at least. But, uh, one is right. Finally, the FBI came. Yeah. She was caught onto her then also. And are more polygamists than fraud in that one. The FBI came to Utah and raided, um, taking computers and other devices for for that. And that just reminds me of this scene because like, they decide like, hey, we're going to take all these computers, we're gonna take everything else. And again, this is another example of me when I love, um, the music for this scene that they use for it because it's just like, funny little, like, [00:23:00] music.

Film Clip: Oh, hey, I was good, right? Didn't I seem really scared? Yeah. Listen, I actually felt scared.

Film Clip: Remember what we told you? All right. Tell them that you're cooperating first thing. And whatever you do, do not take one of their lawyers. No.

Film Clip: That was amazing. You guys should have seen it. Oh, Terry was so scared. And Mick and the lawyers, they were just. They were.

Film Clip: Pissed.

Zach Frank: That just shows again that Matt [00:23:30] Damon's character, Mark, is a little awkward. He's having so much fun with it, but also doesn't seem to understand basics. Six. Uh, as like not not taking the company lawyer. You need your own lawyer. Make sure that they know that you're corroborating witness in this, that you are an informant. And, uh. Yeah, he seems like he's just having a grand old time about it.

Caleb Newquist: He's having a great time. Yeah, yeah. That scene, there is a scene. I think it's right before the raid where they're basically explaining that all. All to him. But he he he says something. I [00:24:00] don't know if I jotted this one down, but he goes, oh, yeah, he goes, I'm going to be all right. Right? Yeah. Like everybody looks at each other like they're like, oh, shit. Like he just he's the only one. Not like that's the thing, right? Like he's not, he's not in on. It's not a joke, obviously, but he's not in on the joke.

Zach Frank: Like, yes.

Caleb Newquist: These FBI guys, these DOJ, these prosecutors that are working with the FBI guys, they're all kind of they're kind of trying to prepare him for the shitstorm [00:24:30] that's coming. And he just doesn't it doesn't register with him at all. And that's kind of the darkness of it is like you're watching the movie. It's like, you know, that it's going to go bad for this guy, but he just doesn't see it coming. He just doesn't think it's going to happen.

Zach Frank: Yep. So after that, basically the FBI is going through their investigation. They're looking into everything. And at the same time, though, Mark's company, they're doing their own investigation because they want to see like, hey, what do they know? What do they not know? And it seems like they [00:25:00] discover a couple checks and invoices that have, uh, some forged signatures on it. That's the first thing that they seem to discover.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Clancy Brown, you've seen Clancy Brown. He's a great character actor. Um, but he he plays one of the corporate ADM lawyers. And, yeah, he calls he calls Matt Damon about these suspicious looking checks.

Film Clip: You can see where he where he pasted it.

Film Clip: He's a fucking forger. [00:25:30]

Film Clip: Mark Whitaker.

Film Clip: Hello, Mark, it's Aubrey. Daniel. Listen, I'm here in Mcandrew's office, and we were wondering, does the name Lennart Torstensson mean anything to you? What about, uh, Nordegren? Kimmie? Does that ring a bell?

Film Clip: Well, [00:26:00] I'll have someone get back to you on that.

Film Clip: Oh, sure, you do that. He's going to call us back. Sure.

Zach Frank: So that's basically. That's basically I am fucked.

Caleb Newquist: He's just. Yeah. He's so fucked.

Zach Frank: Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, yeah. Um. So this is this. It's about at this point where it's starting to unravel for him. Yeah. This is it's starting to get bad. [00:26:30]

Zach Frank: We have not said the twist yet. You know, we didn't mention it.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. That's right.

Zach Frank: But basically, it turns out that, you know, well, the price fixing was 100% real. They were definitely price fixing illegal at the same time this was happening, um, Mark was embezzling money from his own company. Yeah. Writing himself checks, um, taking kickbacks. Taking kickbacks. Yeah. And, uh, you know, at first he tries to to cover it up, even again, like, it seems like every time Mark's caught with something, he has a reason he has an excuse. It's like another lie. It happens multiple times. [00:27:00] Like he didn't mention it, but at first with, uh, when the FBI told him he was going to go undercover for them, uh, they asked him, like, what do you. Why don't we have any recordings? He's like, the price fixing has stopped. It's not they're not happening anymore. They're afraid it's completely stopped. Uh, he always has, like, an excuse. So this one at first. Um, it's actually great. He goes and asks hypothetical to the FBI. I have that scene as well already when he's talking to his two friends at the FBI. Joel McHale is one of them. He didn't mention him yet, either.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, yeah, we haven't. We didn't mention that.

Zach Frank: But he's basically the second main FBI agent involved in this whole thing. Yep. But, um, it's right after [00:27:30] this scene. He goes to, like, a breakfast or lunch with them, maybe even whatever. It goes like a diner with them, some type of restaurant. And he's asking them possibilities like, hey, if I if there's a someone who uses the company plane for personal things, like, is that fine? Like you might get in trouble with the FBI but with the IRS, but yeah, whatever. He's like, what about this here? You know what? Let's just play the scene because it's pretty entertaining.

Caleb Newquist: It's pretty. It's pretty great.

Zach Frank: Yeah, yeah.

Film Clip: What if I just put out some hypotheticals and, you know, I'll talk about certain financial situations, and [00:28:00] you guys can tell me if they're wrong or how serious they might be. Okay. For instance, what if a company gave an executive a car, you know, a corporate car? And instead of driving that to work, he drove his personal car and he gave the company car to his daughter. That'd be a problem.

Film Clip: That's it. That's the hypothetical.

Film Clip: That shouldn't [00:28:30] be a problem.

Film Clip: Okay. What if it was a corporate plane and the executive was using that for personal use?

Film Clip: Well, basically the same thing.

Film Clip: Maybe some IRS issues, but.

Film Clip: Okay. What if it was standard practice at ADM for executives to regularly accept kickbacks in cash? [00:29:00]

Zach Frank: You know, actually stop it there.

Caleb Newquist: Scott bakula. Scott Bakula. He, like, stops mid-chew. And he's like.

Zach Frank: It is fantastic.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Zach Frank: And, um, again, Mark, uh, he's caught, but he's gonna try to, you know, go out as long as he can with this thing. You know, first, it's standard practice at ADM to get kickbacks. $100,000 here, $100,000 there. Oh, they found I want to say they say it's like 1.7 or 2.7 [00:29:30] at first million dollars. Yep. Yep. Then it goes up to four. Uh, sooner or later, it's 7.7. And, uh, in the end, I'm pretty sure the number came out to $9 million, 8.8 or $9 million that he embezzled from his company. And, uh, I have another scene that I love when they're talking. Mark just doesn't seem to get this. He still thinks, like, what's the big deal? I helped everyone, though, get the. He's like.

Caleb Newquist: Well, one thing we should mention, I think, is that by this point, he [00:30:00] has his own, he has his own legal team and he has he's a couple of lawyers that are working for him because he needs representation. And one of the lawyers is played by Tony Hale, who, uh, played Buster in Arrested Development. And he was Gary on Veep. If you know who Tony Hale is. Um, and they are. That's one of the scenes where he's basically he's talking to his two lawyers and he's like, well, they've got they'll have no choice but to make me president of ADM. And those [00:30:30] two guys look at each other like, oh my God, like.

Zach Frank: And I'll say, Mark has not been listening to anyone's advice like, stay silent, don't talk about this. He's doing interviews with publications.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. He ends up in the Wall Street Journal and he's like. And he's like, he goes. He's like, my profile turned out really good.

Zach Frank: Yeah, yeah.

Caleb Newquist: But like, not only does he not get it, but he continues to lie to people that are so he he so the one thing is, is he lies to his own lawyers [00:31:00] like he doesn't he continuously like is springing stuff on them. And there's this one scene. I don't know if this is the one that you're talking about, but there's a one scene where their basic I think they're going to go, they're going to go meet with, um, the Justice Department to figure out, like maybe a plea deal or something. And he's, he's and they and they say before they go, they say, hey, you got to tell us everything. And he's like, yep, this is it, this is it. And there's. And they cut to the scene where they're standing in front of the elevators. And he said, he's [00:31:30] like, I haven't been totally honest with you guys. I'm going to clear that up today. And then they just get on the elevator to go have the meeting.

Zach Frank: Try to stop it for a second. They're like.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. And they're like yelling at him in the elevator. Like, what do you mean? It's just like, oh my God.

Film Clip: Listen, I haven't been telling you guys the whole truth, but I'm going to clear that up in there today.

Zach Frank: What.

Film Clip: Are we going to get you out of here?

Film Clip: No, no, I want it out.

Caleb Newquist: And so, like, that is the thing that I think that makes this so funny is that that [00:32:00] particular aspect of Mark, it just keeps delivering in terms of he can't tell the truth, he keeps lying to people that are trying to help him. And like, there's just all these layers that he keeps peeling away. And so then like, his embezzlement is like is like the big one, where again, he didn't tell his lawyers that he did that. They they told him, he's like, you got to tell us everything. And he's like, uh, yeah, um, I didn't did. I left that part out.

Zach Frank: So one of my favorite [00:32:30] parts of the movie, and it's like a little small twist, but again, it goes to the whole unreliable narrator and it's my favorite one. The movie opens with him telling the story about his life and how when he was six years old, his parents died in a car crash and he was adopted by a wealthy, um, amusement park owner in Ohio or something. Right. And, uh, that's like, you know, he's foster, and he. That's why he adopted kids. He has foster kids or whatever. He's adopted. And that's like he mentions it a few times throughout the movie. And then I love just the cut. It doesn't, you know, no warning or anything. It just cuts. [00:33:00] And it's two old people talking like, yeah, we're Mark's parents. I don't know why he says we're dead. Yeah. And like the entire story, the entire narrative was completely made up and.

Caleb Newquist: Completely made.

Zach Frank: Up. Such a small thing. But it shows you. Yes, this man is a pathological liar. He has a problem. It's not just like, yeah, there's something about his life. He just has to has to lie. There's something, you know. It's in him. He has to lie more.

Film Clip: Evelyn.

Film Clip: What?

Film Clip: There's a reporter on the phone from the Washington Post. Ask some questions about Corky. [00:33:30]

Film Clip: A reporter.

Film Clip: This is Evelyn Whitaker. What do you mean, adopted? Well, as his mother, I can assure you that my husband and I were not killed in a car accident. And Mark was not adopted by wealthy people. Mark's [00:34:00] been telling people that you and I were killed in a car accident, and he was adopted by rich people. What do you make of that?

Film Clip: Mm. It's kind of weird.

Caleb Newquist: Like the actor who plays the dad is just so on the money, like.

Zach Frank: It's a perfect scene. It's so good. The reaction to it, they're just like. And I said, when you learn that [00:34:30] as an audience, you're just like, what the hell? Yeah. Like, like that's made up too. You're just like, wow. Like, for some reason, even more than the embezzlement that takes me, that makes me trust him less than anything, right? Yeah, that that part where it's like, oh, my parents actually didn't die, I wasn't adopted. And I feel like, you know, he goes into. So I guess, you know, you got to sell the lie. He goes into detail every time he tells it about the, you know, the guy who owned amusement parks, that's who raised him. He goes into that detail about it, who he's adopted by his parents dying in the car crash. Like. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Yep. So kind of to wrap things up, like, you know, it doesn't [00:35:00] go well for Mark. Like, he he he gets. I think he ends up pleading guilty. Um, and he gets sentenced to, like, nine years in prison. And, um, a couple of the other guys get shorter sentences, and he's all bent out of shape about that.

Zach Frank: Yeah. They get three years.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. And, um, and that's kind of. There's really no like that. That's that's basically, you know, the kind of the how things kind of climax. Is that [00:35:30] it all it does come unraveled and and marks Mark. You know, there's there's a, there's it turns out that Mark is bipolar. And so there's like some scenes with a therapist and his wife and like there are some like kind of darker moments or, or sadder moments where they're like, kind of like sorting that stuff out. Um, and.

Zach Frank: It also has another great lie of his when he forges a letter by his therapist.

Caleb Newquist: That's. Yes. That's right. Yeah.

Zach Frank: And so, like, why you shouldn't be responsible for his own actions.

Caleb Newquist: That's right. And, um, and then, so when he gets sentenced, the judge [00:36:00] in this case is Tom Smothers, um, of the Smothers Brothers. And, um, and he that's when he hands down the sentence, but still acknowledging, you know, his, his, his bipolar, uh, but, uh, but that does not excuse his crimes, of course, as, um, as we all know, but, uh, but, yeah, that's kind of how things wrap up and, um, I think, I don't know, it's it's it's a fun movie. And, um. Yeah. Do you want to talk about filmmakers a little bit?

Zach Frank: Yeah. I also want to talk about some other cases. [00:36:30] This reminds me of that you covered. Yeah, sure. Previous on my fraud episodes, some of the schemes that you've covered and like how? Like, yeah, it all goes back to the same things and how I guess it makes sense because this is a real life case, so there's not too much liberties into, like, you know, what type of schemes they did. But we talked about the fraud triangle for the company. Let's also talk about it for Mark. So they hint at this. And I did research. And it seems like this might be true that this all started his entire embezzlement scheme started Mark very smart guy biochemist. He also ended up getting his law degree while he was [00:37:00] in prison. Very, very intelligent man. Um, he seemed to have fallen for a Nigerian prince scam. Yeah, or like a Nigerian scam where he sent money to Nigeria?

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, they called him in those days. They called him an advanced fee scam.

Zach Frank: Yes. Like, oh, you give us this much, we're. Yeah. And literally there's debate, you know, who knows why he started the embezzlement. But that's what a lot of people think is what led to him starting to steal money in the first place because he lost money on this scam. Yeah, like this is worse than a phishing email. I don't, you know, like how [00:37:30] how does someone fall for this? How does someone so intelligent with a biochemical engineering degree and a lawyer like, you know, it just shows you the difference in like what type of thinking. And there's different types of intelligence, but, um, pretty unreal that that's what started all of this. But you could say like that's what you know, that's what started the fraud triangle for him. You could also say the rational opportunity. Obviously he was able to write the checks. They must have had no internal controls. We talked about the importance of internal controls. Seems like he forged them. So maybe they had some. But, um, no one was double checking this. There's one line I unfortunately don't have the line pulled up ready to go, but [00:38:00] they say, how do you lose track for two years of $2.5 million? Right. And that's a great point for Dragon Corporation like that. Matt Damon was able to steal 9 million and they never you know the FBI never found their price fixing. Would this money have ever been accounted for? Is it just like, oh yeah. You know, we're a huge company doing I think I looked up in 2023. They had like 80. It was either like 60 or $80 billion in, uh, gross revenue. And I think, oh, gosh.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. No, it's a huge company.

Zach Frank: It was way less.

Caleb Newquist: But yeah. Yeah, but it's a huge company.

Zach Frank: Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Even. Yeah. [00:38:30] Even in the 90s, it was a huge company.

Zach Frank: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But, um, it just shows you again, like, they must have had no type of auditing going on, either internal or external audits. Because you're telling me that the only way they found about this missing money was when they were trying to do their own research and cover up for themselves from this giant price fixing scheme in case against them. And this isn't just a few dollars either. That Mark apparently stole. It's millions and millions, as we said, $9 million. And that's finally when they found out about it. So no internal controls, no auditing. And then the opportunity [00:39:00] was that. And then the rationalization might have been like, hey, well, they're doing mess ups like shit already. They're already like doing price fixing. I'm just like, I'm trying to get my my own. Like I'm saving my own ass for this. Like I gotta steal it for my own reasons. Uh, you know, the mental health aspect of it, I'm sure they just they display it pretty well. His manic episodes. So I don't know if that was what was really going on. If like it was so, you know, manic and not manic, but they definitely showed in this movie. Um, it was weird, like attitude and stuff. You know, we've talked about whistleblowers, obviously talked about Halliburton. [00:39:30] We also interviewed two whistleblower lawyers.

Caleb Newquist: Yep.

Zach Frank: You want to go back and listen to those episodes? It's great for the internal controls or writing yourself embezzlement checks. That reminds me, obviously, of multiple episodes we covered. I mentioned Rita Crundwell with the FBI raid. It also a great one with Nathan Moeller doing it for, um, his insurance company. So that was always a fun one to cover. And then, um, even for other cases, I think reminds me of for I mentioned like the Nigerian prince one, I mean, that could be almost like a old fashioned pig butchering, right? [00:40:00]

Caleb Newquist: Right. Yeah.

Zach Frank: Yep. I don't know, they pretended like they knew him. Somehow or not. I don't know exactly what he fell for, but, um, you know. Oh, and then something else we didn't get into was, um, they mentioned securities, um, because not only in, um, commodities, I mean, not securities, commodity trading because the corn is a commodity. So that remind me a little bit about Easter Day farms betting on commodities. Right. Uh, this one though, unfortunately wasn't you know, he wasn't trying to bet on the price of it, but obviously it affects. Yeah, they're playing the commodities market [00:40:30] like, oh we want it to be this price. So they are rigging it. I'm trying to think if there's any other, are there any other episodes you can think of off the top of your head or anything that you're like, oh yeah, this this reminds me of a case we did. I'm sure there's more like, we've had tons of embezzlement ones, so that shouldn't be shocking.

Caleb Newquist: The big like firs, the big corporate one, like the Airbus, the Airbus one. Yeah, Airbus is another big like if you like the big corporate, uh, corporate, um, extensive corporate frauds like Airbus is another [00:41:00] good story about that. Um, but, yeah, it's there's a lot to, like here for a, for a fraud aficionado.

Zach Frank: And I will say in terms of punishment. Yeah. So the, the people who worked at Matt Damon's company, Mark's company, the other people, I don't know how many of them got three years in prison for ADM. Yeah. And, uh, I looked this up as well because I wanted. I was curious, you know, it's a global scheme. It seems like all the companies at least got fines that were involved in this. Yeah, they all were fined heavily, um, and punished for that, which is another, uh, [00:41:30] Matt Damon has a line that, you know, you and Greg used to talk about a lot. You also had a discussion with, um, with Kelly Richmond Pope about this. Uh, Matt Damon has a line when he's interviewing him in prison, when he's like, you know, if I want to go rob a market or grocery store or whatever, I'd get a two and a half years in prison, I think he says, or something like that. Yeah. And, um, compared to compared to what he got sentenced to, which I think was nine years and he's nine years. Yep. So, uh, yeah. You know, it just shows you like. Yeah. What is justice exactly for [00:42:00] this? Uh, 500 million is what he was able to get the US government in terms of money. Right? So, like, do we forgive him for stealing 9 million? Obviously. I don't think you could do that, but, like, uh, there's quotes from, um, I looked this up as well. There's quotes from people involved in the case. You think he got overly sentenced for how much good work he did right, that he should have gotten a more lenient sentence. Now, what does that amount mean? I'm not exactly sure. Uh, how do you judge that? For all the, you know, like. Yeah, you did good, but you also stole $9 million, so who knows? But, [00:42:30] um, to some FBI, he was a hero. To Adam, he was a thief and a traitor.

Caleb Newquist: Yep, yep.

Zach Frank: Yeah, that basically wraps up everything for me. For the case. Yeah. Anything else with the case? Before we wrap up, maybe a little bit about the movie and stuff?

Caleb Newquist: No, I don't think so. I mean, it's a it's the. So Steven Soderbergh was the director. Um, you've seen you've definitely seen probably Soderbergh movies if you're into if you're into movies.

Zach Frank: I feel like Ocean's 11 is probably is his [00:43:00] biggest.

Caleb Newquist: Probably best known. Yeah, I would say so. But then also he traffic. Yeah. He won. Uh, I think he won Best Director Oscar for traffic, which was I don't remember what year 20.

Zach Frank: I think 2000.

Caleb Newquist: Is that right? Yes. You are correct.

Zach Frank: You know Soderbergh, he actually has done. It's fun. You know, this is a funny comparison to me is the difference between Ocean's 11 and these those movies and this. Right. They're both about stealing money and about heist. But the difference, like one is so [00:43:30] stylized and like they're breaking into like a casino with, like, all these elaborate plans and like, you know, all this stuff, and this is the most boring. Oh, I'm just writing checks to myself and price fixing. But I feel like I feel like it had to appeal to him because of that. Like, I feel like I had to play in his mind, like, oh, I'm going to do a story like this where I'm doing like another heist, but this is like corporate heist. This is how it really happens to the average person compared to like, yeah, this made up Ocean's 11 one, right? Um, and in fact, after this, he did another heist movie. I don't know if you've ever seen, uh, Logan. Logan.

Caleb Newquist: Lucky. Yeah, [00:44:00] yeah, I have. Yeah, it's a good one.

Zach Frank: So, yeah, he he likes making heist movies. That's something about Steven Soderbergh.

Caleb Newquist: Um, yeah.

Zach Frank: But, uh, I think they're all pretty good. I like all those movies I mentioned.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, and he's a he's pretty prolific as a, a filmmaker. That's I mean.

Zach Frank: Yes, he works an insane amount.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, yeah. His his track record is is pretty solid. And I would say the informant, you know, is, is, uh, it adds to it for sure.

Zach Frank: If you haven't seen it, I recommend it. It's funny. It's entertaining. It's a short movie. You know, nowadays, that's a rarity. It's an hour 40. I think about that time.

Caleb Newquist: Right. [00:44:30] Mhm. So. All right. Um, well thanks for talking about the movie Zach.

Zach Frank: This is our attempt.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. This is our this is our swing at talking about movies, about fraud. So, uh, we'll, uh, we won't do these too often. Probably. What are we thinking, like, every other month? So, uh, we'll, uh, we'll start with this one. Send us your feedback. Oh, my. Fraud at earmarks. Com. Let us know what you think. Let us know if there's a movie, uh, you want us to watch and talk about and. Yeah, we'll, uh, [00:45:00] we'll see you for the next one.

Zach Frank: All right, all right. Thanks, everyone.

Caleb Newquist: Thanks.