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Caleb Newquist: Hello and welcome to fraud, a true crime podcast where corporations are people. My friends and some of those people should probably be locked up. I'm Caleb Newquist you're all in for a treat [00:00:30] today. Becca Plotsky she is the host of the Corporate Gossip podcast. Actually, she's technically the co-host. Uh, her brother, Adam Plotsky, is the other host. And I talk about this a little bit in our conversation, but I do not remember how I discovered the corporate gossip podcast. But it caught my eye and I went through the episodes, and there were some great stories in there that I wanted to listen to and [00:01:00] I listened to it, but the thing that really caught my eye was or caught my ear, one or the other, is that Becca self-identifies as CPA scorned. And I thought, oh, maybe she'll talk to another scorned CPA, i.e. moi. So that's how that's how that all came together. Uh, we had never met before, but I think we had a fun conversation and we talked about a lot of different things. It's very freewheeling, [00:01:30] um, probably more freewheeling than some of you will like. But I thought it was fun, and Becca seemed to have fun. So, anyway, uh, before we get to that, just a reminder. If you need a live presentation or a keynote speaker or a webinar or anything in that realm, and you like what we do here, uh, email. Oh, my fraud at your cpcomm to get more [00:02:00] information on pricing and availability. And so, yeah, if that's of interest to you, uh, hit me up. So anyway, this is me with Becca Plotsky. So I'm a little caught up on your podcast, the meta. The meta episodes are so good.

Becca Platsky: Oh my God.

Caleb Newquist: Nice work.

Becca Platsky: Those were a doozy. There was a reason I bet. Take a hiatus after those ones, because.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. No, I mean, and [00:02:30] so actually. But my favorite thing about it is that I learned something very important, which is I now know what a fuck ass Bob is.

Becca Platsky: That is, uh, it's not only a haircut, it's an attitude. It's a persona. And Sheryl Sandberg is dictionary definition of a fuck. Oh, for sure.

Caleb Newquist: Amazing, amazing. I went down, I went down quite a rabbit hole of the fab after that. But anyway, we'll [00:03:00] come. We'll come back to that.

Becca Platsky: Okay, good, good.

Caleb Newquist: Um. Hey, this is fun. We don't know each other. So this is.

Becca Platsky: Very. I feel that I know you.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, is that right?

Becca Platsky: Um. I mean, just being a millennial, uh, reading, going concern at when I was working at PwC in from whatever 2013 to I was there until 2018. I mean, like I told you, that masthead was on my computer every single day was practice. I think it probably was my home page. So when you said going concern. I was like, you are a niche celebrity and [00:03:30] I am a huge fan.

Caleb Newquist: Okay, well thank you. I mean, those are some you were you were you would have been on there and some pretty good years. Like it wasn't it wasn't quite the Wild West like it was in the early like oh nine, ten, 11 like those those days, it was like anything goes. And I don't know if I started to mellow out or what happened, but around that time, that 2013 to 2018 period, I don't know. We did some original reporting [00:04:00] and we always tried to do some, but like it was I don't know, they were just I don't know. We had been established by that point. I wrote thousands of blog posts. Well.

Becca Platsky: Thousands, many of them. And it's funny, I was just telling my husband this morning, I'm like, you don't understand. I'm like, this was the BuzzFeed of accounting. I'm like, yeah. And I went back and I read the one article that is etched somewhere in my the synapses of my brain, which was the goodbye email at the end explaining why Beyonce is [00:04:30] better than Britney Spears. Yeah, like I could probably. It's been 1015 years since I've read that I could, I could I it was the it was a cornerstone of whatever year that came out.

Caleb Newquist: That it's oh my God, it's so funny what people remember because I, what I remember about that is that that story ended up on Gawker and we didn't get and they didn't attribute it to us because.

Becca Platsky: We.

Caleb Newquist: Were the. Yeah. So we. So we got that email. I promise for the listeners [00:05:00] we'll reset in a minute. But for now just let us indulge. Indulge, please. Um.

Becca Platsky: We got that in the show notes because it's so.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. If I. Yeah. No, Adrian's still over there and I'm sure, but it's it's got to be up. But anyway, this email comes through and it's one of these epic, like, farewells and yeah, I just read it and it's just so it's so over the top compared to anything we'd ever seen. And then long story short, it wound up on Gawker because, I don't [00:05:30] know, there was this period of time where how people said farewell at their work was that was totally a thing. And it still kind of a thing, but like, I don't know, there was something about that time where people really were, I don't know, they were they were they were going out. They were going out in a blaze of glory.

Becca Platsky: And it was a lot of pent up rage, I think, in many ways, like, I mean, I'll talk about my introduction, how I got into being a CPA. But for a lot of people my age who decided to be a CPA around 2008 during the financial crisis and [00:06:00] then feel like we got, you know, there's a reason I call myself the CPA scorned because in many ways, I think a lot of us kind of got hoodwinked into doing this career, not. And I'll explain why it's I still have a very, very fond affection for CPAs, and I still am a proud one, but I think there was a lot of pent up rage of US auditors young, you know, at the time in our early 20s. And I related to that. And there were so many of us who were like, oh, I would kill to do a goodbye email.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, yeah.

Becca Platsky: Not that bad. But that was art. It [00:06:30] was art.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. And it ended up on Gawker. And they didn't attribute it to us as, like, first reported. But anyway, like I said, that's that was a long time ago, and I'm not bitter about it at all.

Becca Platsky: You should be non-attribution is is.

Caleb Newquist: Hey.

Becca Platsky: It sucks.

Caleb Newquist: Going going. Concern is still around and Gawker is not. So there you have it.

Becca Platsky: I don't know, we can blame Peter Thiel for that.

Caleb Newquist: But yeah, I know, I mean, well, I can't wait to talk about Peter Thiel. Okay. Uh. All right, so let's go back. Where did you where did you grow up?

Becca Platsky: I [00:07:00] grew up in Binghamton, New York, and I went to Suny Binghamton.

Caleb Newquist: Okay. I knew some Binghamton people from my New York days. I don't I can't think of any right now, but yeah, that's a like that's a that's a that's a common path.

Becca Platsky: Classic accounting school. The pipeline is practically a whirlpool because the minute you and so like I said, I got to college in 2008. My accounting professor laid accounting professor said, uh, if you want a job, you have to do accounting. That's your only [00:07:30] choice. And I was very much a rule follower. So I said, all right, here we go.

Caleb Newquist: Okay. So and and what about your folks? Like, were they like, did they, did they instill in you that having a job was a pretty important thing? Like you weren't going to school to, like, be a philosophy major and then wander the earth?

Becca Platsky: Well, I wanted to be successful. I wanted to be, you know, a successful kid. So my dad. It's actually interesting when you think of when I think about what I do now. My dad is a business journalist, an investigative journalist who became a business journalist [00:08:00] later on in his career. And my mom is a psychologist. So you kind of have this like this right now. What I do is I kind of psychoanalyze fraudsters. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it is it really it kind of makes sense for me. And then obviously you kind of have the CPA lens on top of that where I'm able to kind of actually explain it to people in a way that you don't need a business degree to understand it. That's what I try to do. Um, so definitely, and there was a ton of pressure. And, you know, I'm watching these these at the time, [00:08:30] seniors and juniors who had gotten jobs at banks or at marketing firms lose their offers. And so I felt like I had no choice. The interesting part was, by the time I graduated with my master's degree so I could take the CPA in In 2013. That's when all the investigations and the congressional hearings of how the fuck did that happen in terms of the financial crisis. So I, like my entire college experience, was so deeply shaped by the 2008 financial [00:09:00] crisis. And I think that's kind of one of the things that drives the work that I do today.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. All right. Cool. And so who did your dad was a journalist. Who where did he work?

Becca Platsky: He worked at the local paper. Okay. So, yeah. So just the local press and sun-bulletin in Binghamton. And he got his start doing working at the 1980 Olympics in Lake Placid. Oh, yeah. Under covering. Under uncovering. Uncovering, covering. Yeah. A lot of corruption in the [00:09:30] International Olympic Committee in Lake Placid.

Caleb Newquist: Oh my God. Like bribes to local officials.

Becca Platsky: Kind of stuff. One of the big stories he uncovered was actually that the women who were working at the IOC in Lake Placid were getting paid significantly less than the men. And he.

Caleb Newquist: Oh my.

Becca Platsky: God. Gosh scales. Yeah. So that was like wow.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Wow. That's real deal. Like gumshoe shit right there.

Becca Platsky: He's the class. He's a classic reporter. He's come on the podcast a lot before, but like very stereotypical reporter behavior.

Caleb Newquist: I love it. [00:10:00]

Becca Platsky: I love it. And my mom was a bartender in Lake Placid at the time, so they met, uh, there. And.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, really?

Becca Platsky: Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a good story.

Becca Platsky: They it seems like they had a lot of fun. I'm kind of jealous.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. All right. Oh. Mazel tov, by the way, I because you just got married, right?

Becca Platsky: Oh, yeah. We just got married. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Got married a month ago, actually.

Caleb Newquist: All right. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Welcome to the club. All right. So. All right. What an interesting. Okay. It's an. Yeah. The the family dynamics and. Oh by the way so and you have a brother. [00:10:30] Yeah. Is it just you and Adam?

Becca Platsky: Yep. It's just me and Adam. Yeah. There's no like third sibling that, like.

Caleb Newquist: Okay that you left out of the podcast.

Becca Platsky: It's just the two of us, so.

Caleb Newquist: Okay. That's cool.

Becca Platsky: Is my co-host, um, He's what we call the data analytics Playboy. So he's a big data scientist. But more than anything, he's the one person who can kind of push back on me when I've gotten too high up on my high horse, or I'm getting, you know, I'm not taking somebody else's perspective. He's the one person who can really push back. And so it's [00:11:00] a really nice dynamic, and we have a lot of fun doing it.

Caleb Newquist: I was going to say it's it. It comes through like I mean you guys are obviously having a lot of fun. Um, anyway, um, okay, so Binghamton accounting. And did you do the internship with PwC?

Becca Platsky: I sure did. I did two of them.

Caleb Newquist: Okay. All right. You did two.

Becca Platsky: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Okay. And you did them. And you did them in New York.

Becca Platsky: In New York City. Yeah. And going to school in Binghamton was so funny because everybody that went to my college also worked at [00:11:30] PwC. So it was basically it was like, like I said, it was a whirlpool. I felt that I truly had no choice. It was just, this is the path. So, you know.

Caleb Newquist: Right.

Becca Platsky: It was obvious.

Caleb Newquist: Okay. So how was your experience there? Like you like. Yeah. I just I'm just curious, like, everybody had everybody that goes through the path that we go through has their own. I mean, a lot of the stories are similar, but everybody's kind of got their own flavor. And you're, you know, you're now you you tell stories for a living. So I'm curious about your your [00:12:00] Big Four, your PwC experience.

Becca Platsky: I mean, you know, I imagine what people say is like it is quite fun because you're hanging out with a bunch of when I really think back about about it, I'm like, it's actually insane that the majority of this auditing is being done by 20 to 25 year olds.

Caleb Newquist: Completely insane.

Becca Platsky: For three months on, I'm like, it's actually because the fact is, I had no idea what I was doing. Absolutely. Truly. No idea. I knew in a sense I would [00:12:30] be comparing one spreadsheet to another spreadsheet. But beyond that, for the entire two years that I did straight accounting because I moved quickly after that, I had absolutely no idea what I was doing, and if you asked me to describe it, I would bullshit really well, but I had no idea. Um, so I had a lovely time, met so many great friends. It was, it was. The work was tremendously painful. And it kind of blows my mind that I even had the attention span to do it.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Becca Platsky: Now, I can't imagine, [00:13:00] especially with smartphones and like the way that people's attention spans and working from home, I, I genuinely can't imagine how people do it. Um, and we talk about it in our podcast. I don't know if this is something you want to include, but we talk about the prevalence of misusing ADHD medications and a lot.

Caleb Newquist: Of.

Becca Platsky: People, especially young professionals who are in these types of environments where it's incredibly monotonous work. The abuse of amphetamines is rampant. It was like that when I was there. [00:13:30] I didn't know about it at the time until much later. But I think about that now. I'm like, God, this monotonous work is while it's incredibly, it was informative to me, I wouldn't want it to be replaced by AI, for example. Right. But at the same time it was. Yeah, it was, it was rough. Um, but but yeah. So I did that for two years. I moved into kind of more of a consulting role, because I just had met somebody who knew somebody who could get me into this other position. [00:14:00] Um.

Caleb Newquist: At PwC.

Becca Platsky: Pwc. Yeah. And I kind of bopped around consulting for a couple of years, eventually moved into organizational, uh, change management, where I did that for PwC. And then my most recent company, which was a it's a huge old tech company. And then I just got laid off from that job in May. And now I am doing my podcast full time. Yeah. So it was kind of perfect timing to be honest. I'm not.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Becca Platsky: But still, uh, yeah. So that that part of my journey.

Caleb Newquist: Okay, cool. Very good. [00:14:30] All right, so then let me ask you this. During your time at the firm. I mean, you are going concerned, reader. So you're obviously interested in gossip. But were were you yourself? Were you a gossip? Like, did you like gossiping about just in general or. I guess in the, in the context of work, was that something that you felt like you were doing all the time?

Becca Platsky: So I didn't make this up, but I have heard that the best gossip is detailed gossip [00:15:00] about people that you don't know personally. Yeah, you don't want vague gossip about people that you don't know, or vague gossip about people that you know, or even detailed gossip about people that you know, because that's too much information, but gossip about people that you don't know is great. And I would love that. So. Oh, some other woman and some other office brought lice and they had to completely, you know. D what is it? Fumigate the entire office.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Becca Platsky: Everything like. Like. Yeah, yeah. Of course. That's always been something [00:15:30] that I'm interested in. And I think that kind of goes back to having a dad in journalism. Like what is journalism if not just, you know, credentialed gossiping that holds people accountable?

Caleb Newquist: Gossip with a framework.

Becca Platsky: Gossip with a framework? Absolutely.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Becca Platsky: Yeah. So, so totally. And I also just from an early age or from even from that early, uh, time, especially coming out of the financial crisis and understanding at a very relatively early in my career, what a [00:16:00] credit default swap was, what exactly happened in the financial crisis. And I'm like, wait a second, I'm going to all these forums, I'm going to all these panels and every person who comes in from Goldman Sachs or any of these big banks or any of our clients, I'm like, wait, but I've read in Too Big to Fail or in any of the other incredible books that came out around that time.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Becca Platsky: That not only are you a bad guy, but you're also dumb.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Becca Platsky: Why am I sitting here and and like and and and playing into this [00:16:30] myth that you are some untouchable genius when I know for a fact. And it was very frustrating to me because and I know this is where I'm going to get into a part where I'm like, God, you must have been insufferable. And I was truly, really insufferable. And I was one of those assholes that I always raised my hand and say something obnoxious, not obnoxious, but like, ask a question that I thought was kind of provocative. And I'm sure in my 20s I did it in a way that was obnoxious. Now, in my mid-thirties, I've been able to somewhat work that muscle [00:17:00] a little bit and more importantly, only do this to people who want to listen to me do it right. Um, so so so. But I knew I knew very early in my career that I'm like, something's not adding up here. And we're all just. We're not talking about it. Yeah. And so it it it led me to read more and, and try to crack the nut a little bit further.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. It was I, you know, I'd have to say that my experience was somewhat similar, although it was happening at a different time. So [00:17:30] like while you were kind of starting your career in the wake of the crisis, like my. My accounting career, my CPA career was coming to an end during the crisis. So like it's 2008, I'm in New York and I'm reading. Deal breaker, I'm reading. New York magazine, Daily Intelligencer I was reading that the Eliot Spitzer scandal was that year, like there was all this crazy stuff going on. Um, the Bear Stearns bankruptcy [00:18:00] was actually in 2007, I think. So like that had happened. But then like the summer. So like, yeah, like 17 years ago now, which is just insane to say out loud. But like that summer, there's all these questions about Lehman Brothers and all these things that was going on, and then it just all comes to a head in the fall. Like that was all happening in real time. And then I was there at I was at KPMG when things like when there were layoffs at KPMG. There's layoffs [00:18:30] at every firm, not to mention the like all the people that were working in finance at that time.

Caleb Newquist: And the crisis and it's the end of the Bush administration. And it's just this shit show. And then on the other side of it, like while you had kind of this, you had you were coming out and thinking about this stuff with the benefit of hindsight, we were all just caught in the mix of it and just like, what the fuck just happened? And then a bunch of us had to figure out what to do next, because [00:19:00] it didn't feel like going back to what we had just come from. Like, that wasn't going to work. At least it wasn't. It definitely wasn't going to work for me. And I, you know, long story short, went off to do I fucking decided I was going to write on the internet, but it was definitely one of those things where I don't think I was ready to call bullshit on everything, but I was jaded enough and cynical enough to think, I don't need any. I don't want any more part of that. And in fact, I think I'd rather write about [00:19:30] the stuff that's happening. In a way that I think, you know, like from from the, from the, from the perspective of an insider, just kind of like what deal breaker was what kind of above the law was things like that.

Caleb Newquist: And I got lucky enough that those guys, those guys that ran those websites, we, you know, they they were looking for someone to do something on accounting. And then I'm like, I like, I'll do that. I've been I had been keeping a blog for a for a little while by [00:20:00] then and it just I don't know, I got lucky in that regard. And so but yeah, it was it. And you know, I don't know if you would agree with this or not, but there's like the gossip that I think where I've come around to gossip because I tried to I don't try to rationalize it per se, but I'm still a gossip to this day at my my current job. And part of the reason gossip is good, and gossip is important is because it is a [00:20:30] way of staying informed about what is happening at. If you're going to work for a, I think, especially larger companies, I think people need to be aware of what's happening within those companies and not just taking the internal communication at face value.

Becca Platsky: Truly.

Caleb Newquist: Right. Because I think it's just a way to protect yourself, because I just don't in this day and age, I don't think anyone is really of the belief that, oh, my employer is looking out for me like they're definitely right. I think we're past all [00:21:00] that. And so gossip is how I think people really stay informed on a meaningful level, especially at larger employers. I don't know what you think.

Becca Platsky: No, that's.

Caleb Newquist: That's kind of where I.

Becca Platsky: Agree. I mean, gossip is as old as humans are.

Caleb Newquist: It's right.

Becca Platsky: And so it's not anybody who I believe me, I get a lot of people who say, oh, I think that you are. Oh, you shouldn't be gossiping about these billionaires. Oh, you think you can do it so easy? Why don't you try it? You know? And, uh, and and in various variations [00:21:30] of, of, uh, that trolling. But gossip holds people accountable and anti gossip. You are anti people being held accountable. And there's a lot of people who make a lot of money by not being held accountable. So I get it. Of course they're going to want to protect themselves. Of course they're going to want to, you know, say, oh, you're being mean to this billionaire. Okay, well that's fine. Yes I am.

Caleb Newquist: And. Right. Yeah. Okay. So now [00:22:00] that we've established your your your kind of your gossip, uh, philosophy. So what how did how did you decide to start a podcast? Like, what's the story of that?

Becca Platsky: So I mean, many like many podcasts, especially this decade, it started as a TikTok. Um, and so I just started doing TikToks and I did one on Enron, and I was like, damn, I forgot how much I love talking about Enron. Yeah, I remember it's one of my first memories being 11. [00:22:30] I remember being in a hotel with my dad, and we were watching news coverage about Enron, and I remember it to this day and I can never get enough. It's just fascinating to me. Ken Lay Ken lay in the fetal position as when he came back as CEO, realizing that everything was falling apart. Jeff Skilling getting shit faced at a bar and being being hauled into the drunk tank when he's realizing everything's falling apart. Oh my God, it's it's unbelievable. [00:23:00] And and so once I realized how much I remembered, once I remembered how much I loved talking about this stuff. Yeah. It also coincided with the fact that my boyfriend at the time was also opening up a podcast studio. And then I decided, I think I can just do this long form. Um, and we've been doing it for a little under three years now.

Caleb Newquist: Okay.

Becca Platsky: We do, you know, long form episodes. Each episode covers a single company. Um, and and it's been it's [00:23:30] been such a joy. We get we've had for example, we did an episode on GE. Jack Welch, another guy could talk about.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Yeah.

Becca Platsky: We had one of the former CEOs of GE, Jack Flannery, reached out and was like, love your podcast.

Caleb Newquist: And so that's nice.

Becca Platsky: Former CEOs we've had former employees. We have lots of different people who who know a lot about business, who got an MBA, who are CPAs and people who don't because we talk a lot about pop culture, too, because.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Becca Platsky: That's the crossover is more than you would think. [00:24:00] Um, but yeah, so that's we've been doing it for three years. And like I said, I'm now not necessarily by choice, but by destiny, um, doing this full time. And so it's been one of the great joys of my life is doing this podcast.

Caleb Newquist: And it was always you and Adam doing it together.

Becca Platsky: Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: All right. Cool. So he shared, you're like, so he kind of shared your interest in terms of, well, we can we can go on there and talk legitimate shit. Not just talk shit, but talk legitimate shit about these companies and what's [00:24:30] going on and what people are doing. And and you guys have perspectives. You have point of views too. I think that's the thing that people kind of I don't know if people say things like this to you, but like what people have said to me over the over a long period of time is like, oh, you know what you should blog about? Or oh, you know what? You should do a podcast on and be like, no, please tell me, please tell me what I should do. Because like people, it's one of those things where you have to have something to say. [00:25:00] Yeah, right. And I think because this was our world, because our careers were in these, we were, you know, we were accountants. But then also we had kind of, you know, um, you know, I don't even know what the skill set is talking Or or or just being like like I think you were saying in one episode recently, like being able to think critically about, like these situations and like, read between the lines when you're reading the stuff in the media, like [00:25:30] there's there's a lot of great reporting out there, but it isn't always made for.

Caleb Newquist: And I guess in our cases, at least for me, it started as, oh, I wanted to be the insider who could explain this to regular people, but also that the insiders related to. It's like, oh, that guy knows what he's talking about, right? So because accountants are weird in the sense that, like, oh, they have a hard time listening to people who aren't accountants talk about accounting. And I always felt that was like, look, you don't have to be an [00:26:00] accountant to talk about accounting. I just happen to be one who does. And so in any case, I think I don't know where I was going with all this. But the fact of the matter is, I think your podcast is wonderful. So let me ask you, let me ask you this. So what was there a story where you're like, we have to talk about this. Like, was there one story where you and your brother are just like, oh my God, we can talk about this like, this is this is like the first episode.

Becca Platsky: Peloton. That was where we started.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, okay.

Becca Platsky: You know why it started? Because I read one [00:26:30] of the things about accountants, too, is like, we're able to hyper fixate. At least I am. Like, if I find one thing, I'm like, great. Like you just said, you're going on a deep dive on Fuckass. Bob's like, that's such a specific thing that like, oh, and when we say deep dive, we mean several hours.

Caleb Newquist: Yes.

Becca Platsky: So. So I went on a deep dive about the new CEO who had taken over from John Foley. And for those of you who don't remember, at one time during the pandemic, John Foley, the founder and CEO of peloton, said, guys, the trends that we're seeing [00:27:00] now in 2020, in terms of people working out from home will never end. And so we're going to go ahead and project our sales out to 2025. And just at this exact same clip, not realizing that things would change once we hit 2021 2022. 22. So I read an absolute insane monologue from the CEO who had replaced John Foley, whose name I'm forgetting at the moment, but where he talks about he was a kid, he was working on a ship. He the [00:27:30] the ship was going the wrong direction. They had to turn the ship around and turn the ship around. Huge in terms of CEOs have very few uh, they have like these rhetoric, uh, tools that they use and turn.

Caleb Newquist: The rhetorical device or whatever. Yeah.

Becca Platsky: Yeah, turn the ship around. As soon as I hear a CEO say that, I'm like, uh, you're done enough. You have not a single critical thought in your brain, right? But so he's going on and on and on, and I'm [00:28:00] like, I can't believe I. I can't believe that you're. You are the CEO of one of the most powerful brands in the world telling this completely random, nonsensical story. More than that is incredibly trite. And I'm like, I need to do a a animated version of this where I talk shit about you because you should be embarrassed. Um, and just the decisions that he was making and where peloton had come from, John Foley just being [00:28:30] canonized as this incredible.

Caleb Newquist: Right.

Becca Platsky: Ceo who was actually just at the right place at the right time. At one point, we read an article where he talked about his morning routine, including taking 40 sips of water out of the sink from his hand every morning, like lapping it up like a cat.

Caleb Newquist: Like that sounds like that sounds like OCD to me.

Becca Platsky: Maybe. Yeah, I.

Caleb Newquist: Mean, I don't know, but.

Becca Platsky: Like, I never thought about it, but maybe. And it's just like, it's just. But like, why are you saying these [00:29:00] things like. And I guess that's where I'm like, we need to be pushing back a little bit, because I guess my message to CEOs is like, you should be more embarrassed. You guys.

Caleb Newquist: Have.

Becca Platsky: Ice cream scoops taken out of your brain as a, as a, um, as a result of being so powerful and so rich for so long. And nobody tells you no. And now you're spewing nonsense. And so once I kind of was able to, as you can tell, like that was our first episode and I could still go on about it forever. [00:29:30]

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Becca Platsky: Once I realized that that was fun to do and people liked listening to it, we just kind of kept going from there. So that first season we did Under Armor, we did, uh, Boeing, we did OZY media. Another insane story with Carlos Watson. That was crazy. And he just got away. So this was.

Caleb Newquist: I know.

Becca Platsky: Who catfished Goldman. I don't want to. You can.

Caleb Newquist: No. It's okay, it's okay.

Becca Platsky: Catfish. Goldman sachs.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Becca Platsky: And then was sentenced to what I believe was actually a way too. Too harsh of a sentence.Ten years in prison and then basically just sucked up to Donald [00:30:00] Trump and now is

Caleb Newquist: I know.

Becca Platsky: Pardoned.

Caleb Newquist: The the story is insane. The story is insane. Um, I have a colleague now who is at OSI in 20. She left in 2018. Oh, so.

Becca Platsky: Like right at the end of it? Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Uh, not quite at the end. So she was there when that BuzzFeed article came out that said, oh, they bought all this fraudulent traffic and they sent and it sent it to that JP Morgan article. So the the stuff with Samir, like the catfishing stuff, she was gone when that happened, but [00:30:30] she was there when she was there. Like, she, she said I, she was just she lives in Seattle now, but she was just in town and I saw her and I was asking her about it and she said, oh, the stuff they were asking me to do, I was like, I it always felt very strange, like, why are you asking me to do this? And she just it that place was.

Becca Platsky: Abusive from what I.

Caleb Newquist: Heard. Yeah. And toxic and fucking just. And and Carlos Watson is a weirdo. Big [00:31:00] time weirdo. Very, very charismatic.

Becca Platsky: But a huge weirdo. Absolutely.

Caleb Newquist: So let me ask you about that. So I have a lot of feelings about this. And I just want to know what your take is. What is it about. What is it about our culture? That kind of cannon? You said it. You said it very well earlier. What? Why do people canonize these people? Is it media? Is it the people that they surround themselves with? Like, why do people like Revere these business leaders to. To [00:31:30] the extent that they do? Because it's a little bit gross. It's a little bit childish. But then also, like you said, people, they don't want to hold anyone accountable when their behavior is, you know, questionable. So I just I'm just curious, like when you think about that, like, why what is it about America or the US? Or maybe it's maybe it's not unique to the US, but I'm just curious what you think about why that is. And it seems to be getting worse in a way.

Becca Platsky: Oh, [00:32:00] see, I kind of think it's getting better, but what? Okay, so my my one word answer is Ronald Reagan. What? One word.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Becca Platsky: And if you hate Ronald Reagan, you would love my podcast because it's half of it. It's just us shitting on him. But really, I mean, since since lacocca. And then after that, the dismantling of the regulatory state. The only way to kind of back into, hey, government is bad corporations are [00:32:30] good trust corporations over the government is to say CEOs like occupy a immortal like the level of of their intelligence cannot even be measured. Right? Um, even if they say something wrong, we have an entire 700 persons comm department in the case of meta to back into why their decision was actually right. I mean, if [00:33:00] you look at how dictators run their countries and then look at how corporate comms run a lot of these huge companies. It's the same.

Caleb Newquist: Like.

Becca Platsky: There is no on top of that, we have the corporate governance in America is a absolute joke for the most part, where you have boards of directors that are buddies with the CEOs.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Becca Platsky: What's the point? I mean, these guys, if [00:33:30] I'm the corp, if I'm the board of director, and all I have to do is show up and approve this guy's pay package for $50 million or $157 million. In the case of David Zaslav, one of the biggest flops CEOs of all time. And then I get to go and get invited to Cannes with David Zaslav and hang out on his yacht. Hell yeah, I'm going to do.

Caleb Newquist: Oprah's going to be there. Okay. I'm in.

Becca Platsky: Yeah. Why would I not?

Caleb Newquist: There's no.

Becca Platsky: Consequence. And it's just so I think short. Short answer [00:34:00] is Ronald Reagan. Larger answer is American individualism, the collapse of the social safety net, the way that we need to kind of. But I also think, like I do actually think it's flipping because I think that it only works if people aren't constantly being fucked over and scammed by these companies. If, like, the majority of people are still like, I can buy a house, like I have some loyalty to this company, I know I'm not going to get laid off like I worked for a tech company where most people [00:34:30] it started in 1900. Most people spent their entire life working at this company. That's not the case anymore. And you can see it in the way that employees interact with their with their employers. And when you don't have that loyalty, it's a lot harder to keep up the myth that the CEO is a god.

Caleb Newquist: Right? Yeah. Have you guys done a WeWork episode?

Becca Platsky: No, but I love that story. I mean, Adam.

Caleb Newquist: Such a good story.

Becca Platsky: Such. I mean, talk about a cult leader.

Caleb Newquist: Oh my [00:35:00] God. Like, so you like Scott Galloway? Yeah.

Becca Platsky: Oh, yeah. I mean.

Caleb Newquist: Okay, so Scott Galloway is Scott Galloway. I don't remember if it was on a documentary or what, but there's just this. There's just this one like soundbite from him and something I watched, and he's like the renting fucking, for God's sake. Like, this is not a this is not a leasing company. Yeah. It's not a multi-billion dollar business. And I'm like, I there was something about [00:35:30] that WeWork I just from the and look I'm not I'm not saying that I'm smarter than anybody else. I'm not saying all I'm saying is that that I saw it coming. Whatever. All I know is when I would read about WeWork, I hated every second. I just hated all of it. I just like this. Doesn't smell right. That guy's a creep. Yeah. Kibbutz. Nice story. Like, great. Like, this is all very well, but the myth making behind it all was just like. And that he was some kind of genius or some [00:36:00] kind of inspirational like person. I'm just like, what? What? What is he saying to people in these meetings? Like, how is he convincing people that that this is some that this is the future? And like, I don't know, there was something about that story. That's the one in my most recent memory where, like, soup to nuts, I just always thought it was bullshit. I'm just like, this is, this is this is going to end badly for everyone involved.

Becca Platsky: I think it's interesting that you say it's not that I'm smarter than anybody [00:36:30] else, but I also think having the humility and like, this is for me with crypto. I'm like, yeah, I know I'm, I'm not like the smartest person, but I could get by. I don't understand crypto. I don't understand its value. And I'm like, for me, if I don't understand something, then I'm not going to get involved in it. And how many people try to convince me, oh, you just have to understand it this way or Adam Newman. Well, because you don't get the vision. You don't understand. We're not a subleasing company. We're actually trying to direct quote from their prospectus, change the world's [00:37:00] consciousness.

Caleb Newquist: Yes.

Becca Platsky: Adam, I don't know how I'm. There's no I don't know. It's been a long time since I've looked up GAAP principles so your listeners can tell me, but I don't remember there being a freaking line on the balance sheet for consciousness. Yeah, like like.

Caleb Newquist: Intangible assets.

Becca Platsky: Consciousness.

Caleb Newquist: It rolls up into intangible assets. Becca. Come on.

Becca Platsky: Assets. But it's it's like. So I'm like, if you don't understand something and a lot of people are trying to convince you that you're dumb, and that's why you don't understand it. Just [00:37:30] stick with your first gut reaction. Honestly, people are smarter than they. Than they give them credit themselves. Credit for. Yeah. And I'm like, aw, same like with blockchain. I'm like, I don't get it. I don't want anything to do with it. I don't trust it. I just don't like yeah.

Caleb Newquist: So here we are. It's 2025. Things are weird again. Do you? I mean, I don't even I don't even know what to think anymore at [00:38:00] this point. Like I said it on a recent episode, I think like if this administration could get away with it, I think they would figure out a way how to decriminalize fraud as a, as a like in the criminal code, like they would figure out a way. It's like, how do we, um, you know, all this stuff that people are doing. And Watson is a good example. It's like, here's a guy who's convicted in a court of law. Was his, uh, sentence, uh.

Becca Platsky: Ten years?

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. His sentence was pretty, pretty tough. Yeah. Um, [00:38:30] so maybe commutation is is is appropriate, but like, uh, he was still found guilty in a court of law by a jury of his peers. Last I checked, we still say that that's how we do things here. And if that's what happens, then you have to pay the consequences. Like there's there's there's there there is. Um, you will be held accountable in those instances.

Becca Platsky: Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: But what I don't. But what I don't understand is like. It seems like that. Well, you got there's another example. [00:39:00] And I don't want to just talk about people that Trump has pardoned, because I don't want to necessarily fixate on that. But it does feel like we're in this kind of weird period where people who have access, people who have money, people who have, you know, whatever they are. It does feel like that wrongdoing there is going to be less accountability for a few years here [00:39:30] rather than more. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you say, like you said, with the CEO worship, that's kind of turning a little bit. People are seeing are more aware of what's going on. And they're they're starting to get mad about it. Or do you think that it's kind of like still this golden age of fraud to use a that was another episode we did. But like, do you feel like it's It's kind of like, you know, make hay while the sun shines right now for people who want to, I don't know, not follow the rules or just or to fuck people over. [00:40:00]

Becca Platsky: I don't, I don't honestly, this is going to be kind of radical, but I actually don't think it's any worse now in terms of people doing fraud and getting away with it than it was under Obama. I don't think it's any worse now than it was under Biden. I think one thing that the Trump presidency is doing is showing how much people in the top who are connected get away with fraud and have no consequences. I mean, Boeing, there's been issues with Boeing since 2012. [00:40:30] There's been issues with PG and E for I mean, similarly in terms of fraud, in terms of of not following regulations, not even not following, but just like deliberately deceiving regulators since way before President Trump. But I think it's just really quite eye opening for many people where it's like, Holy shit, I didn't realize just how easy it was to bribe. How easy it is to get away with this kind of stuff if you're connected enough. And I think it's quite it's [00:41:00] kind of cool in a way, because it's like exposing a lot of these things because Trump is just so blatant about it.

Caleb Newquist: Transparent even.

Becca Platsky: Says, yeah, man. Rock on. Hell, yeah. Clarence Thomas is not going to stop you.

Caleb Newquist: From.

Becca Platsky: Doing fraud if you want to do fraud. Um, but but that's one of the things that we look at in our podcast, like, for example, meta. In 2012 to 2016, Obama had a lot of opportunity to regulate Eight meter, which was at the time and did not, and was extremely cozy with a lot of these tech companies. Um, he allowed for a lot of these things could happen. A lot of these things that his advisers told him would [00:42:00] end badly and didn't. And now we're suffering the consequences. So I think and that why why did that happen? Because it was cool to be friends with. Yeah. Mark Zuckerberg at the time, it was cool to be friends with Sergey Brin. Um, and Obama wanted to be cool. And so, like, as much as I want to say, like, this is a new time, I actually don't think it's any, in fact, like, I mean, look at the meta case.

Becca Platsky: Uh, the f we don't know the results, but the anti-trust case was [00:42:30] brought during the Trump administration, the first Trump administration, and now went to trial during the second Trump administration. I don't think it's just a coincidence that Biden did nothing with it, because Democrats and Republicans both love corporations, and they want them to be happy. There are certain Republicans that don't like what they perceive as woke companies. Meta is one of them. So like they all have their different reasons to go off after certain companies. But overall the headline is Democrat or Republican the corruption between, you [00:43:00] know, billionaires. I mean, we live in a kleptocracy, kleptocracy and autocracy right now is bipartisan. Um, and I think that's where, for example, in New York City, Mamdani was so successful because he's talking about a lot of these things that people that people know and, you know, other Democratic nominees that are in part of the establishment we're not talking about.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Hmm. No, I think you're on to something. All right.

Becca Platsky: I'll give you one. One quick example. At the beginning of.

Becca Platsky: Kamala Harris's, uh, presidential run [00:43:30] back about a year ago. Now, you'll remember in the beginning of her run, she said, uh, we're going to address price gouging at the grocery store.

Caleb Newquist: Yes, I remember.

Becca Platsky: So lots of different things like that where we're going to go after companies who are scamming you and you know, I'm sure if you're a human living in America right now, you kind of feel like every company is out to scam you, and you're having to be hyper vigilant about not getting scammed. And that's just like a shitty way to live your life. So Harris was like, hey, we're going to address this. But you'll notice towards the end [00:44:00] I remember this towards the end. She's talking about a small business loan or it suddenly turned into pull yourself up by your bootstraps type of type of why did that happen? In particular, there's one very specific, uh, and I can link the, uh, the New York Times article if you want. Um, but but a big business lobby that said, no, you're not going to implement price controls. Otherwise you're going to lose our donations. Well, what is that if not corruption, right. Like, this was a this was a very [00:44:30] popular policy that ended up getting, um, disappeared because of big business interests. Like this is again, it's completely it's bipartisan.

Caleb Newquist: All right. So now the question is if things aren't any worse. Like, is this kind of just our fate as a country? Because like, it just feels like like this hyper capitalist like like you mentioned these things earlier, but the individualism, deregulation, um, [00:45:00] you know, the taxation of capital versus the taxation of labor, you didn't necessarily mention that specifically, but that's all totally, totally. But it's totally part of it. So how do things I don't know, how do things like is it is it really just up to shit talkers like us to like help inform people to be aware, just to be just asking people or or encouraging people to be more aware of what's happening around them. Or is is it? I don't know, I'm not usually this cynical, [00:45:30] but is it does it feel like.

Becca Platsky: It's a cynical time for sure? I mean, yeah, I also think the pendulum swings and like my favorite, the thing that makes me feel better listen, like I get in a black hole like everybody else, and there are so many times where I'm up in the middle of the night being like, oh my God, oh my God. Like, what is happening? It's scary and it's exciting and I have a trazadone prescription for it because otherwise I don't sleep sometimes. Yeah, but I highly recommend um, but I think one of the things that has brought me great comfort is shout [00:46:00] out to the PBS passport app $60 a year, and you get access to all the PBS documentaries you could possibly want to listen to.

Caleb Newquist: And.

Becca Platsky: Watch, and it's given me everything is cyclical, everything is cyclical. 110 years ago or no, like, uh, yeah, 110 years ago, early 19 tens, there was a crisis of masculinity. All of our men are addicted to sex, and it's creating men who can't take care of their families. They're [00:46:30] really toxic. They're abusive. They're getting into these, like, really radical circles. That sounds familiar, because it's how we're talking about tech these days. But at the time, it was alcohol. It was distilled alcohol. And that's where the prohibition started. Right. So it's like all these things that humans are just humans that will continue to do the same patterns again and again. And. And I believe, like many people say, that we are in a second Gilded Age. That's going to be painful for a little while and something, you know, quite traumatic or crazy [00:47:00] might have to happen. For example, in in the Gilded Age, it was World War One that kind of reset the world order. Um, does that mean that things won't be painful? And I'm not nervous and I'm not kind of clutching on? Sure, of course I am. But, like, you know, it's also I have faith. I still have so much faith in individual humans. And there are so few billionaires, and we've all pretty much agreed that they are adult losers. And I just I don't believe that the adult losers can win, [00:47:30] will win in the end. I think there will some that will still die and have like a good life. But I think overall it's just it's I don't know. And maybe it's just my belief that has like my faith that like, not faith in whatever, but like my faith in just like humanity. Um, and maybe it's just copium, but that's just how I kind of walk myself back from a ledge.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, yeah. No, I like it, I like it, I think. I mean, not, I, I think I'm, I'm mostly in agreement with you. Like, at the end of the day, I [00:48:00] think I'm choosing to be optimistic about the future. And I do like when I think about things like even again, not I'm not, I'm not um, I'm not trying to harp on any one person. But like, Trump as a figure, as a historical figure is not that different from like, Andrew Jackson. Like when you read about Andrew Jackson and what kind of person he was and what kind of leader he wanted, what kind of president he was. Um, uh, trying to be the Trump it kind of it. There's [00:48:30] tons of parallels. Now, granted, you know, all the context matters, but it does feel like, you know, what's what's the old saying? Like, uh, history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes.

Becca Platsky: It rhymes. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. And and that's that's that's kind of what this feels like, so. Okay. I don't have anything prepared, but I will do the best to improvise here. Let's have a little, um, a little game of word association or something for [00:49:00] corporate villains. Okay. So I will say a name and you can say the first thing that pops into your head. Are you game?

Becca Platsky: Okay. Oh, I love this. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Let's do it. Fantastic. All right. Uh, because he came up earlier, Peter Thiel.

Becca Platsky: Um, sweaty. He's so sweaty. You ever watch this guy get an interview? Like. Yeah, it's like, oh, my God, the just the energy that this man needs to expel just to be as terrifying [00:49:30] as possible is pretty, um. Pretty amazing.

Caleb Newquist: Do you know what I think it is about him? Huh? I've. I've read a lot of his writing. I've listened to a lot of his interviews. And you know what it is, at the end of the day, for him, he doesn't want to die. He's afraid of. He's afraid of death.

Becca Platsky: Mortality and daddy issues are two huge themes that come up in our podcast. A lot of the CEOs that we talk about that have either that are the worst of the worst. Yeah. Um, we always try to deep dive into their childhood and, [00:50:00] and oftentimes it's a really traumatic family situation. Um, and also like kind of a proving to dad that I'm worthy. Um, or and I listen, I think this is the case with Donald Trump and Elon Musk.

Caleb Newquist: They both. Oh, yes.

Becca Platsky: Severe daddy issues. And I think there's some type of daddy son thing going on. And listen, I read the Mary Trump book and I know about Elon's childhood. I genuinely would not wish either of their childhoods on me. And and I think it drives a lot of their [00:50:30] behavior.

Caleb Newquist: And Elon's dad is still alive. He's still out there. He's still out there trying to repopulate the Earth. Yeah.

Becca Platsky: Oh.

Caleb Newquist: I mean, Fred Trump is dead. Long dead. So. But but Donald is still trying to impress him anyway. Not the point. Not the point. Okay, well, it kind of is the point. All right, um. Let's see. Um. All right. Because because I don't know what the crossover between our two shows are. So I'm going to I'm going to use one that's probably very fresh for you, and it's very fresh for me because I just listened to it. But maybe [00:51:00] a lot of people listening haven't heard you say anything, but, like, I'm going to give you a twofer. Um, let's go with Sheryl Sandberg.

Becca Platsky: Um hmm. The word that I'm thinking of is Instagram or social media. And the reason I'm not saying that because it's the product, I'm saying it because, like, the idea of kind of creating a facade for yourself that is so departed from who you actually are, uh, or I would say like facade or some type of fake, [00:51:30] fake fake. Liar.

Caleb Newquist: Okay, I like it. All right, let's like. Okay. Another obvious one. Uh, Jeff Skilling.

Becca Platsky: Oh. Harvard MBA.

Caleb Newquist: He is like.

Becca Platsky: So we talk a lot about Harvard MBAs and like, the the, um, I don't know if you have many that listen to your podcasts, but just the like the the severe groupthink. Yeah. That happens. And and he to me is like so, so stereotypical. Um, yeah. [00:52:00] Just justifying just feeling that I went to Harvard. Therefore everything that I say and I think, you know, he your your listeners will know this. He wanted to do an accounting where he recognized the revenue of an idea when he had the idea, when it came to his brain.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Becca Platsky: So maybe the word I would use is revenue recognition. That is, uh, an absolutely amazing, incredible. Never been done before, never replicated, never duplicated. Uh, in the words of Lady Gaga.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. It's there's [00:52:30] something about you guys also talk about McKinsey a lot too.

Becca Platsky: Oh my God. Yeah. That's one of our most popular episodes. Is the deep dive on McKinsey.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. The the Harvard and McKinsey double whammy of of of Sheryl, Sheryl Sandberg. Harvard. Right. Right, right. If that's in your life experience, then I think you said it on one of the episodes. But like there is no there is there's no problem that they can't solve. There's no there's nothing they've ever been wrong about. [00:53:00] Like, there there is something about kind of I don't know if cognitive dissonance is the right phrase to use right there, but like, you could confront them with all the evidence to the contrary of what they believe and they still won't believe it. Like, because it's kind of it's kind of been it's been bred in them that you're the smartest and brightest of, of what America has to offer. And so go out and conquer.

Becca Platsky: Yep. Yep. And if and if if the idea doesn't work, it's because of some [00:53:30] other external force. It has nothing to do with you. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's it's quite interesting when you really look back and you look at the themes of the people that we talk about, like how many of them, um, had the same exact life path. Well, that maybe before we wrap, we can talk about the fraud triangle, because that's like one of my favorite things to talk about, too.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Becca Platsky: Um.

Caleb Newquist: But we can transition away from word association.

Becca Platsky: Okay.

Caleb Newquist: Triangle.

Becca Platsky: Um, well, because one of the things that I was actually curious. I wanted to ask you about [00:54:00] this, what you thought about this. So I have this. You know, obviously, we all know we all love the fraud triangle of basically, you know, I don't know if I have to explain it, but just the idea that, like, you will do fraud if you have rational rationalization, opportunity and purpose on the corporate Costa podcast, we call it a fraud square because there's often the element of strip clubs. Um, but that's just like setting, um, set and setting. So but I also kind of believe that we are all rats in a cage or rats in a maze, [00:54:30] basically saying that, like I always tell people, I'm like, you think that you could never do fraud, but I promise you, you could. And if you're in the right situation, you will. And and if you. I was listening to one of the podcast that you did with Kelly Paxton. And she was saying how, like, um, what is she. Oh, she was like, she was talking about somebody who had talked to her and was saying, I'll never need to hire you because I'll never get scammed. And it's like, I think one of the ways that we can protect ourselves is by having [00:55:00] humility to be like, I could get scammed and also I could be a scammer. Like, even if you're a good person, even if you're like a church going, you know, perfect, good do gooder, you will do fraud if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong pressure, opportunity, and rationalization. Do you believe that?

Caleb Newquist: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And I and I've kind of evolved in the course of doing this show. I have evolved on this a little bit because there was an episode that we did. Do you remember the The Pappy Gate story? Those guys who were Heisting bourbon [00:55:30] in Kentucky?

Becca Platsky: No.

Caleb Newquist: There was this conspiracy. It's a very early episode of ours, but it was this there was this conspiracy in Kentucky amongst these guys that worked at the distilleries down there. And they were and they were they were taking bourbon and they were selling it, and it just and it was known as Pappy Gate. Well, anyway, the guy, the the guy who kind of took the fall for it. I mean, he was kind of the ringleader, but at the same time, he was also a patsy, like everyone just, like, turned on him. And [00:56:00] there's a there's a documentary on Netflix which the name is escaping me of, but he said, but he was the first. He was the like the first, I think, um, perpetrator who I ever heard say anyone in the same position as me would have done the same thing. Yeah. And I thought, that's that's not true. I didn't I didn't buy it. I thought if I was in his shoes and I'm working like that. Just it didn't make any sense to me. But as I've just researched countless stories since [00:56:30] then, dozens of stories since then, and just read more and listened to more people and like your, uh, it wasn't Kelly Paxton, but Kelly Richmond Pope was one of our other early episodes. She's a professor at DePaul, and she said, everybody's got a number. And some like taking all of these kinds of bits and pieces together. And then, as you say, if I put myself in circumstances where I'm under pressure of some kind, financial or otherwise, or maybe just life pressure in general, but probably a financial [00:57:00] pressure if I have access, if I have the opportunity in order to, to, to to money or something that I could turn around and sell for money without anyone knowing. And then I can rationalize, I can convince myself that this thing that I know is wrong. It's fine for me to do. I'm totally capable of that. Totally capable of it.

Becca Platsky: And that's where when it comes to, like, the Harvard MBA types, the rationalization bar. This is like again, my theory. [00:57:30] I'm not saying this is based on research, but I believe that their bar for rationalization is much lower because they're like, if I thought of that this, then it must be smart and it must be, you know, a great business decision, right? People aren't doing this not because it's illegal, but because nobody's thought of it before or because, you know, and it's.

Caleb Newquist: Just so disruptive.

Becca Platsky: And it's you see it all the time and it's like, um, yeah, I and so it's always frustrating to me when, when there are people who, [00:58:00] who are pushing for lack of regulation because I'm just like, you guys don't realize how many lives have been saved by regulation.

Caleb Newquist: Like, yeah, I mean.

Becca Platsky: Like, truly and like regulation that you don't even know about. And it's like, because ultimately people need rules in order to not do fraud. And like, there's so many, there's like, no, I'm not saying people are fundamentally bad, but just like the way that our system is so broken, we absolutely need rules to help keep people doing. You know, nobody [00:58:30] wants to be in jail. Nobody wants to do fraud. Like, it's just it just something. And that's I mean, I also believe and that's one of the reasons why I believe that, like, white collar crime should be prosecuted much more broadly, but with much lesser sentences. Yeah. Because it's just yeah, I mean we because. Right. Anybody can do it. And I think it's, it's just um, it's too bad that we make people into boogeyman because then it's like, oh, you can't you can't prosecute that person because [00:59:00] they're such a good guy.

Caleb Newquist: It's like, well, that and that's something that we've talked about a lot on here, which is good. People can do bad things.

Becca Platsky: Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Oh my God. I mean, things are not things are not. So you know, cut and dried. Exhibit A for this is a story we did about a woman working as a tax collector for a municipality in Maine who is like this pillar of her community and like, they're just had all these like and, you know, spoiler alert, she committed a fraud about a half [00:59:30] a million bucks. But at her trial, she had all these character witnesses of people that were coming to her trial that could not believe that she was capable of such a thing because of something that they did, that she had done for them or done for her family, or just examples of her doing good things for just but strangers, but loved ones, but whatever. Like just countless stories of this stuff. And it's just like it's just one of those things where like, we have to allow ourselves that people are fucking messy. Yeah. And [01:00:00] that the way Greg put it, he said, he said at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if my mom was convicted of fraud. I would, I'd say, I wouldn't, I say I wouldn't have seen it coming, but it will not surprise me because I'm sure there would be circumstances that my mom could get into where she would think, oh, taking a little bit of money is gonna be all right, and I'll just pay it back, right? You know.

Becca Platsky: Yeah. Yeah. And another great example, by the way, [01:00:30] is if you ever read about the, um, post office, like, remember the post office murders and like, the 80s and 90s, like, that's another one where it's like, I actually believe that those those people who committed the murders did not have a choice. Like, didn't have a choice in the sense that, like, their environment was so horrifically toxic that it felt like they didn't have a choice and everybody around them was like they were a great guy. And by the way, I understand why they did it. Yeah. Um, and it really changed my mind [01:01:00] about it really opened my mind into like, what you're saying, like, good people can do bad, bad things, like. But we need to understand, like, how circumstances drive people, right? Um, but yeah, I yeah, I, I totally agree. Um.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, there was one thing I was going to tell you. We did an interview with. She's now the former vice dean of Brooklyn Law School, but her name is Miriam Baer, and we interviewed her at the beginning of the year. But she has written a book about basically. And like she you should listen to the episode before you go and buy your book. But like, she was basically [01:01:30] telling us about how what you were saying is like white collar crime, especially like the wire fraud statute is so broad and such a like for prosecutors is such this like you can use it for just about anything to bust somebody. And the sentencing guidelines are such are written in such a way that you end up, you know, you end up with people getting, you know, looking at maximum sentences of like fucking centuries.

Becca Platsky: Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: And granted, no one usually gets sentenced [01:02:00] to those to, to century long. Um, yeah. They don't get century long sentences. But there is there's nothing in the law that accounts for like what I think you're kind of talking about, which is people who make a mistake and are remorseful, but then, you know, they get a ten year sentence when really maybe two is probably appropriate or even probation, depending on the circumstances. And that was an interesting thing around [01:02:30] the law that I, I didn't know before. Is that where in the the comparison she made was like to murder? We have first degree murder. We have second degree murder. Things like that that take into context the crime. Well, in fraud, context doesn't really matter in the eyes of the law.

Becca Platsky: It's so interesting. If there was first and second and third degree fraud, like right where you are. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Becca Platsky: No, but I mean, it's just like it's it's also disheartening. And I understand why people are so frustrated because it's like, okay, [01:03:00] Luigi Mangione allegedly committed murder. Yep. You could take this out if it's too radical for you, but allegedly committed murder. Um, And PG, and E has admitted to manslaughter of over 80 people in one fire because of their negligence. Right. And hundreds of people have died because of negligence that PG and E has admitted to. Um, but there's no there's no criminal consequences for the executives [01:03:30] who had reports that said, if you do not fix this, there will be a fire, people will die. Okay, well, unfortunately it's not in the budget. Sorry. And there's no consequences for them. Right. Boeing. Same thing. They have admitted to manslaughter. Uh, we were going to get them to be have, like, an actual, uh, prosecution, but they just, uh, agreed to a non-prosecution agreement a couple of weeks ago. But but it's it's quite frustrating because, you know, we talk about fraud in terms of, like, financial consequences, but there are actually [01:04:00] this is also fraud, as can be murder. Yeah. Like there is this idea of social murder, which is like if an executive, for example, like Has the authority to make a decision that leads to somebody dying, for example. Like a really good example of this is the Grenfell Tower disaster in London, where the this was a huge apartment tower that had a ton of issues, and the developers knew about it and they decided to not, you know, do anything about it. And a thousand like [01:04:30] hundreds, I think, of people died. Um, that's social murder. Um, it's like, but that's not prosecuted in the US. And it's it's so like when you see a lot of the anger around, like Luigi Mangione and like the, the way he's being prosecuted in the US, it's not necessarily like, oh, people shouldn't be prosecuted for murder, it's people should be prosecuted for murder if they allegedly did it. And that should include everybody. Yeah. And that should include Boeing and that should include PGA. And that should.

Caleb Newquist: Include.

Becca Platsky: And.

Caleb Newquist: Not just people like [01:05:00] Bernard Madoff. Right. Where they say, oh, you know, there was you know, in that case, the punishment fit the crime because of how much money was involved and kind of the just the kind of ripple effect of all those things, or in what I've seen, the terminology I've seen in a couple places is economic homicide. And yeah, where he like he, he decimated people's lives because of his crimes. And but you're right, it isn't accounted for in so many circumstances that it is. I don't know, [01:05:30] it's I mean, it's it's a virtually a part of it's a part of most of the stories that we do where you learn about people who lost their life savings and people that are people are too old to work, you know, and it's just like, and what are they supposed to do moving to their kid's basement? I'm sure that's what they want to do is move into their kid's basement, you know, especially when they had worked their whole lives to save the money so they didn't have to do that.

Becca Platsky: Watching an elderly woman, from my my recollection, outside of the Enron offices when I was watching [01:06:00] the fallout as an 11 year old and this elderly woman was like, Ken Lay told me to put all my retirement in Enron stock. I lost my entire life savings. I'm going to have to work now. I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm gonna work at a grocery store. She's 80.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Becca Platsky: That radicalized me. I was like, oh, and look. Ken Lay died. Like, you know what I mean? It's just like a lot of this shit. And then that's another thing that's so interesting. I'm. I'm thinking about this now because I just saw Dorian Gray, um, on [01:06:30] Broadway on Friday, and it's. But the idea of, like, doing bad things, there's a reason that Peter Thiel looks like he does. There's a reason that Jeff Bezos looks like an egg, and Lauren Sanchez looks the way she does. It's because these are evil people and you. And it doesn't matter how many facelifts, how much Botox, you will look evil. And Ken, it wreaks havoc on your body. There's a reason that Ken Lay died six I don't I don't even think he was sentenced. He was convicted, right?

Caleb Newquist: He [01:07:00] wasn't. He was convicted.

Becca Platsky: And he died before sentencing. Yes, because your body knows, even if you think that these billionaires, like, are living their lives like they are tortured inside. At least that's what I tell myself because of how shitty they look. There's no way. And it's. And like anytime people come to me and they're like, well, listen, I want to be an executive. Like, what should I do to protect myself from becoming a, you know, having ice cream scoops taken out of my brain and becoming an asshole. I'm like, [01:07:30] make sure you're involved in your community. And this is an advice for everybody. Like, go outside, hang out with people in your neighborhood, like join a club, take up a new hobby, whatever it is, like it will it, it will make the world seem like so much of a better place. And then also like you need friends to not turn in to, um, you need to understand that other people and other humans have their own individual lives so that you don't exploit them when you get into power, [01:08:00] because that's the problem. Like, a lot of these guys don't see people as people. They've, like, graduated into another like plane of existence where they don't actually see. And they and they've done studies on this, like people who are in power and people who have a ton of money. They they actually it's like we we started calling saying that they have brain damage because their brains struggle to have empathy with other people. They struggle to see pictures of people who are suffering and like.

Caleb Newquist: Feel anything.

Becca Platsky: Feel anything which.

Caleb Newquist: Which.

Becca Platsky: What came first, [01:08:30] the chicken or the egg? We always talk about that like, are you an asshole? And then you become an evil billionaire or what? But I actually think it's because being a billionaire causes brain damage.

Caleb Newquist: All right. Wasn't that fun? That was fun. Um, I'm going to link to I'm going to link to her website. I'm going to link to the corporate gossip website, and I am going to link to a couple of the episodes. I highly, highly, highly recommend the meta episode. It's a [01:09:00] two parter, but it is if you if you think you know that, if you think you know the Facebook story or the meta story or whatever, um, I don't know, I, I, I wasn't an expert on that story. And after listening to those two episodes, it was just a fascinating, I don't know, I learned a lot. And it it you won't you won't like Facebook by the end of it. Believe me, it's if you if you're on the fence, then [01:09:30] you'll get to the end and be like, yeah, they suck. And it's because they do. Anyway, um, as far as lessons, I have to admit that the fraud square, that interpretation of, uh, of of how fraud happens, you know, opportunity, uh, uh, pressure rationalization and strip clubs, it makes sense. Like, I can I can see how that could, uh, you could make a case [01:10:00] that the fraud triangle can easily become a fraud square. But other than that, um, there's I have not listened to all of their episodes, but it sounds like. Sounds like I should go listen to the Boeing one. The Boeing one might be quite good. That's again, another story where I'm like, what do I know about that? Do I know everything about that? There's probably even more than I even realize.

Caleb Newquist: But anyway, thanks, Becca, for coming on. It was good fun. And that's it for this episode. And remember, someone just needs to take one [01:10:30] for the team and be Mark Zuckerberg's friend. Okay, can somebody do that? Can someone please just volunteer and just hang out with that guy? He'll probably pay you. And then maybe, maybe all this madness will end. Or at least one bit of the madness. Oh come on. Anybody takers? Anyone? Anyone. All right, forget it. [01:11:00] If you want to drop us a line, send us an email at oh my fraud com. Oh my fraud is created, written, produced and hosted by me Caleb Newquist Zach Frank is my co producer, audio engineer, and music supervisor. Laura Hobbs designed our logo rate review and subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. If you listen on an earmark, you'll get some CPE. You won't get all of it, but you can get some and then you can pay, and then you can get as much as you want. That's just how they do [01:11:30] it. I don't know, you can't like there's I can't help you with that. There's only so much I can do. Okay. Just, you know, if you're one of those accountants that needs the credits, do it. Join us next time for more avarice, swindlers and scams from stories that will make you say, oh, my fraud.