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Caleb Newquist: Hello and welcome to Oh My fraud, a true crime podcast where the weapons aren't knives or guns, but lies and betrayal. I'm Caleb Newquist. [00:00:30] How's it going? How's your commute? How's the laundry? How's the gym? If you're new here, welcome. If you're a regular. Nice to see you, as always. I am really excited about today's episode. Today I have an interview with Jonathan Todd Schwartz. Now, who is Jonathan Todd Schwartz? If you are a regular listener to this podcast, then that name might ring a bell. He came up on episode 68, which was one of our defrauded [00:01:00] famous episodes. He was the business manager who stole millions of dollars from a handful of his celebrity clients, including more than $5 million from Alanis Morissette. And we got the opportunity to have him on and we took it. So I will talk a little bit more about that in just a second. But first, I'm going to read a quick review that came in recently. Uh, this one came on YouTube. Yes, YouTube. And it's from Diego. Diego says you make [00:01:30] fraud cases so entertaining. Listening from Belgium. Well, hello from Belgium. Um, I don't know any, uh, Flemish. What is it? What is their language? Flemish, right? I have no idea. They speak all kinds of languages in Belgium. Um, but anyway, thanks for listening. All the way from Belgium. Tell all your chums in Belgium, uh, to listen to the show and. And to rate the show. Yeah, definitely rate the show. Leave the reviews wherever you listen. Uh, leave a comment and we maybe I'll read it or [00:02:00] send me an email and do it that way.

Caleb Newquist: If you want me, I'll read your email on air. Whatever you. Whatever you prefer. All right. Also, um, if you are an organization or a conference that needs a live presentation on fraud or ethics, then that is something that I can do. And I can also do it with my former co-host, Greg Kite. Uh, for example, we are doing Greg and I will be at the new Jersey society of CPAs convention and Expo on June [00:02:30] 5th in Atlantic City. So if you're a CPA and you're in new Jersey or your jersey adjacent and want to get in on that, then come see us in Atlantic City in June. Okay. There's a link in the show notes to that convention and expo website. Okay. And also webinars. We've done some webinars. Uh, the episode on the sheriff of Frodingham that came out right at the end of last year was a webinar that we did for More North America, and that was super [00:03:00] fun and turned into a pretty good episode. And we can even, you know, not swear because sometimes people ask us not to do that. So email oh my fraud at earmarks e.com to get more information on pricing and availability for that. Okay, that's all the business. So without me bandying about any more about it, let's get to the conversation between me and [00:03:30] Jonathan Schwartz. Where did you grow up? Let's start at the beginning. Uh, what were your early years like?

Jonathan Schwartz: I grew up in the Catskills in upstate New York. It was a beautiful place to grow up. Um, really small little town that was, uh, a great tourist attraction for many in the, you know, New York City and the the boroughs and [00:04:00] all over. Hotels were full of life. Bungalow colonies. People would come up in the summer for camp. They'd come up for the summer and weekends. It was just a really beautiful place to grow up. Unfortunately, it's no longer as beautiful as it was. I have fond memories of my childhood, although I have a lot of childhood trauma and I don't recall a lot of my childhood.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, okay. And, um, what did your what did your folks do?

Jonathan Schwartz: So my father, [00:04:30] um, abandoned myself, my young, when I was four and my younger brother when he was one, and my mom was forced to take three jobs and put food on the table for us and a roof over our heads. And, uh, you know, I really, uh, respect my mom very much for all that she did for myself and my brother.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, man. Jeez. That's, uh. Do you do you have any memories of your dad?

Jonathan Schwartz: I do, they're not very good memories. [00:05:00] Um, he, uh, like myself, uh, a gambling and cocaine addict and pretty much addicted to anything. In my active addiction years, he, too, struggled with the same gambling and cocaine. Um, and also poor choices as. As I've made many poor choices. So, um, we didn't have a great relationship. I didn't see him often until I went, uh, until I probably hit 12th grade. Um, saw him maybe once or twice when I would travel to New York for business. Um, and [00:05:30] unfortunately, he passed away in February of 2017, the year that I was sentenced. And I tell you, I miss him now more than when he was alive. And, uh, so, you know, for those that have loved ones that are sick, you know, we're not promised tomorrow. And I encourage people to forgive, Uh, practice forgiveness and to reconcile as best one can.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Um, so growing up, what? What, [00:06:00] like what were your interests? I'm like. I guess I'm just curious as your path from, you know, you know, being in a household with a single mom and, you know, all that kind of entails, kind of the uncertainty and and just, I mean, honestly struggle, you know, that's that's definitely a hard way to grow up. So I'm curious as like, as a young person, what were your interests like, what did you what did you what did you think your future held for you? Like, what were you what did you get excited about? [00:06:30]

Jonathan Schwartz: What I enjoyed most was playing sports. That was my way to escape the reality of my upbringing and the environment. Yeah. Uh, it was a fairly good athlete. Uh, played a lot of baseball. That was my primary sport. Uh, I would go down to into the small little town and play basketball. Just a pick up game. But baseball was my passion, and, uh, it was just a means for me to escape the household and the reality of my upbringing.

Caleb Newquist: So you love sports, you're playing baseball. And that's a good. [00:07:00] I mean, that's a good outlet for a lot of kids who maybe are in situations like yours where you make friends and you work as a team and you can have mentors and things like that is like, was was that part of your experience?

Jonathan Schwartz: Absolutely. You know, I didn't have a father figure growing up in my life. And my mother was, as I said, with three jobs, she wasn't really she did the best job she could.

Caleb Newquist: Of.

Jonathan Schwartz: Course. And and so for me, it was finding some sort of sense of community. And that's, that was on the baseball [00:07:30] diamond. And that was what my teammates and some of my other friends that I had.

Caleb Newquist: And as you, as you got older, as you got older, did that, did you? I mean, were sports sports part of your life all the way through high school and in and and into graduation?

Jonathan Schwartz: Yes, through high school and college as well. I participated in sports, um, recreationally. Yeah. But I really I really enjoyed it. I started to take exercise a little bit more seriously and stay in shape. Um, you know, anything [00:08:00] I can do to escape sort of the trauma that I experienced as a child?

Caleb Newquist: Right. And it was. I mean, it was it was probably at a time. You're a little bit older than me, I think, and even. But even when I was young, like, um, you know, mental health and children wasn't necessarily the priority that it is today. Like, it isn't something that people took as seriously. So I'm, I'm guessing that what so that trauma that you were experiencing that wasn't that wasn't [00:08:30] resolved for you, at least not at that time or it wasn't something that was maybe focused on either by your mom or your teachers or other adults that were around you.

Jonathan Schwartz: Yeah. So I'm 55, so I did not resolve my childhood trauma until about age 46. Yeah. Um, and that was that contributed to a lot of my maladaptive behaviors and to my addictions later in my adult life. Um, I don't use that as an excuse. I don't play the victim [00:09:00] role. I take full responsibility for all of my poor choices. And, um, you know, and, you know, the trauma just contributed, and that's all it did. But at the end of the day, I'm the one that made the poor choices.

Caleb Newquist: And so when did you how did how did you transition into college? Like when you, when you left home. Like what? What was that part of your journey?

Jonathan Schwartz: So I went to three colleges. So that was very consistent with the pattern of growing up. We moved from apartment to apartment. There was [00:09:30] no housing stability. And with college, um, I went to C.W. post my freshman year, transferred to Suny Albany. I actually thought That's when I sort of, like, dabbled in gambling. Um, a fraternity brother of mine. Of, you know, of my fraternity brother. Excuse me. And I decided, you know what? Let's become bookies. Bookies always win. Well, we were the only bookies on campus for the two weeks that we did this. That lost because we didn't understand. You have [00:10:00] to, you know, there's a vig and this and that. And so I actually left Albany because we had a $10,000 balance and 5000 was his balance, 5000 was my balance. And for a college student and especially me growing up poor, that was a lot of money. Yeah. And I couldn't pay the debt. So I left school and called up my mother, who had moved to San Francisco, and I asked if I could come live with her and her husband and go to finish school for my last year and a half at San Francisco [00:10:30] State, which is what I did.

Caleb Newquist: Okay, so gambling is so that that came up early. I mean, that came up that came up pretty early in your life, you know, as a as an adult, I guess. Did you know about your father's history at that point?

Jonathan Schwartz: I did, I did I knew my father was a gambling addict. I knew he was an addict, like a cocaine addict and and other addictions. Um, and I never thought I would turn up to be like him [00:11:00] or turn out to be like him. And unfortunately, I turned out to be much, much worse than him. Um, you know, I'm the one that I committed. The white collar crime. I'm the one that hurt so many people. And, uh, you know, today I miss my dad. Even though he passed away in February of 2017, I miss him more now that he's passed and really didn't get to spend quality time with him when he was alive. And, uh, I don't carry resentments, but I do miss them.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Yeah. So. So you moved to San Francisco [00:11:30] and you finished your school there. So then what did you study?

Jonathan Schwartz: So I studied accounting, a bachelor of science in accounting. So, um, I have seven cousins that are in my family. So I kind of was destined to be an accountant. That was the only real subject that I resonate that resonated well with me. Um, and so when I graduated college, I called up one of my seven cousins who happened to be, uh, one of the top business managers in the entertainment space specializing in music, and asked him if I could come work [00:12:00] for him. And he said, no, you're irresponsible. You're immature. What do you know about, you know, business management? Why don't you go work in an accounting firm, hone your analytical skills. And when I think you're ready, I'll give you a call. So I did that. I worked in the financial district of San Francisco for a small sole practitioner CPA firm. It was the best advice I ever received, because I really did learn a lot and was able to hone my analytical skills. And in 1995, he called and said, you're ready. [00:12:30] Why don't you move down with your wife and your, you know, my oldest son at that time, and we did. We drove down and that was the start of getting into the entertainment business management world.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, cool. So I was also I was also a CPA for a short time. Um, and so and uh, did you I mean, it sounds like it sounds like a lot of accountants in your family, so you kind of knew kind of the potential that it had. I didn't have any accountants in my family. Um, but [00:13:00] I, I had a friend whose dad was a CPA, and, you know, he had a nice life. They had they had a they had a great life. They had a nice house and they went on nice trips and stuff. And so like that was definitely something appealing. Uh, but it sounds like you had it sounds like you. It sounds like you had even in your extended family, you had, you know, some some role models and that's that were that steered you in a pretty good direction at that time.

Jonathan Schwartz: Absolutely. I'm grateful for the extended family because we have a beautiful I have a [00:13:30] beautiful extended family, and I love my cousins, I love, you know, my extended family and I both my mom mostly on my mom's side. Yeah. And I get along really well.

Caleb Newquist: Great. And so. All right. So it's it's it's you said it's 95, that your cousin called you and said, okay, you've been cutting your teeth. Um, why don't you come down to Los Angeles? And so then so what was that like? That must have been exciting.

Jonathan Schwartz: It was super exciting. I mean, I don't I'm not enamored by the entertainment community in terms of the celebrities. [00:14:00] I don't put them up on a pedestal. Right. And I think that's what helped me become successful because they knew that I wasn't a yes business manager, you know? So we all put up on the same socks and shoes the same way. Yep. They're no different than you and I. So that helped me, um, attract some really help, you know, great clients. In the beginning, in 1995, I went to work for my cousin. I wasn't ready to be a business manager, but I needed to learn, and I never wanted the [00:14:30] word nepotism associated with me. So I was the first one in and the last one to leave. I got paid very little money, but I looked at it like it was an investment in my future and my family's future and learning from one of the best and my cousin, um, whatever he was willing to pay, I was it was like going to grad school and getting some money. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: And so what what kind of work were you doing that, that early work? Like what? What kind of things were you doing?

Jonathan Schwartz: When I started working for him, he's like, well, I want you to just go into the into the file room and read everyone's [00:15:00] files, learn how to document, learn how to reconcile, learn some of the music language, you know, learn about touring. And so I spent a lot of time reading. I spent a lot of time asking for questions because I think today I don't profess to know something if I don't know it or to know, you know. So. And I encouraged my staff when I ultimately became a partner at another firm to do the same thing. So I asked. I asked a lot of questions, I became curious, and I just really wanted to be a sponge and Learn. And [00:15:30] then in 1999, his firm was acquired by Chase Manhattan Bank, now JP Morgan. He asked me if I wanted to get into family wealth management. I said, because I love you for the opportunity, but no thank you. I'd like to stay in business management. And the next day I joined another firm, GSO Business Management. Michael Oppenheim, he was my favorite partner. Um, and he hired me on the spot and he also mentored me. Unfortunately, he passed away in the beginning of last year, [00:16:00] and he was my mentor and I miss him dearly. But it took me, you know, I started off with call it B-level clients, and then I got a lucky break in 2000 with a band called Linkin Park. Yeah. Um, they were a new artist. Yeah, they were a new artist at the time with Hybrid Theory about to come out. And, uh, they interviewed several business managers and they retained me, and that was like the crossroad in my career, because once, once Linkin [00:16:30] Park took off and they took off very fast, I started to receive calls daily from agents, managers and lawyers asking if I'd be interested in working with their client. And I'm grateful for Linkin Park. They also taught me a lot about the music business.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, so I'm curious about so It Sounds Like you as far as developing the specialization into the music business, that just was kind of happenstance because that was your cousin's expertise, is that right?

Jonathan Schwartz: That's right.

Caleb Newquist: And then that, but that [00:17:00] it seemed like that you you kind of locked into it. You said, no, this is great. I, you know, the, the, the, the business is interesting. And you obviously did you have kind of an affinity for music or what was it about, what was it about it that, that you really kind of took to?

Jonathan Schwartz: It's a good question. My friends always laugh at me because honestly, I didn't take an affinity to music, but I just loved being a business manager in the sense that, you know, people would always ask clients when they would come, what's the difference between [00:17:30] a CPA and a business manager? Firstly, anyone can call themselves a business manager, but the ones who have CPA, they can really analyze a person's financial situation by just looking at their financial statement. Their financial statement is like a script, like a movie script, but about someone's finances. A CPA is, you know, a lot of CPAs mainly just do some tax work. I didn't enjoy doing the tax work. We had a tax department. We had a royalty department, a risk management department. The bookkeepers [00:18:00] paid the bills, received the income. And that that financial statement is what I enjoyed the most. Helping clients meet and achieve their financial goals and improving tour profit margins and all the other areas that the clients, uh, you know, worked with and merchandise. Right.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. And so what do you or looking back, like you said, after you kind of you took on Linkin Park and you had some [00:18:30] success with them. Was there was there something specific that they said like, well, and then your phone starts ringing? What what were you good at? Like, what did you what did you do that all of a sudden it started. It it started like snowballing in terms of the opportunity. Was there was there something? Yeah. Was there something that you can point to that you said, this is this is why I was good at what I was doing.

Jonathan Schwartz: Yeah. I think to be honest, I was authentic. I mean, I know it sounds ironic because I'm sure we're going to talk later about me not [00:19:00] being so authentic. Right.

Caleb Newquist: Of course.

Jonathan Schwartz: Yes. You know, I was really authentic. I really connected with them personally. I was a really accessible, probably too accessible. Um, but I loved what I did. I mean, what made me special, I think, was I did because I went in in San Francisco and worked for a sole practitioner. I really did have the analytical skills that many business managers don't have. I also can, you know, can speak with, you know, clients and communicate and articulate and be [00:19:30] curious and understand their needs and help them achieve their needs. But I was really good at just helping them achieve whatever it is their goals were. And I just want to be clear, it wasn't just me. I mean, we had a staff and the staff really was just as important as I was, if not more important, because without them, I couldn't do my job.

Caleb Newquist: Right. And, you know, some of our listeners, I think, work in kind of the show business space, but most don't. And [00:20:00] I think that's probably kind of a common misconception is that, you know, I think when it comes to like artists, um, or um, uh, music, whether the musicians or they're actors or writers or directors, whatever it is, it isn't as though, you know, there's a lot of people working behind the scenes to make those people successful. And as like you said, you know, you've got a tax department because the artists, they, they, they want to just focus on what it is that they [00:20:30] do. And part of what you get to do is part of the team that, you know, helps them succeed. Um, and I think that's just something that a lot of people don't necessarily understand about the business. And so it's it's it's an interesting I think it's a fascinating field. I mean, I like I like all kinds of assets or facets of entertainment. Um, and so I guess I take it kind of a keen interest in all these parts that go into it. So [00:21:00] it's, it's the, it's the late 90s. You're at GSO. Um, and you've got Linkin Park and now you're getting all the calls. So, so like, what's, what's kind of the next stage of your career at GSO when you, when you, when business really starts coming your way?

Jonathan Schwartz: I mean, you know, just, you know, obviously it created wealth for me at that time. Yeah. And for the firm and how?

Caleb Newquist: I'm sorry. How big is GSO? What? What size of firm is it? How many? How many people?

Jonathan Schwartz: So [00:21:30] since my crime, they merged with another practice, another firm. Um, but at the time, we were probably one of the top three boutique business management firms. There was me and three other partners. So we had four partners and we all had our own book of business, but we collaborated every week on our respective clients, you know, how can we improve our service and so on and so forth. Um, you know, listen, I got lucky.

Caleb Newquist: Um, yeah.

Jonathan Schwartz: I got really lucky. You know, I wasn't a rocket scientist. I just happened to be really good [00:22:00] at the skills that are required to be an excellent business manager, with the one caveat. Until I started my criminal behavior.

Caleb Newquist: And what you're now, when you joined GSO, did you become a partner straight away or did that? Did that happen later?

Jonathan Schwartz: No, it happened about 3 or 4 years. Um, after I joined the firm, I needed to still grow. I needed to still learn. Um. And that's what Michael Oppenheim took me under his wings. And then Bernie, another partner, took me under his wings. And, you know, I really learned from really great guys. [00:22:30] I was really fortunate. I, you know, to me, learning is everything. Knowledge is power. And, uh, I just wanted to be a sponge. I just loved learning and love knowledge. And, um, it really helped me become who I was at that time.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, yeah. And so you're having success. So at this point, at this point, are your addictions, are they are they present in your life? Like, what's how is that part of your life? Like where is it at that time.

Jonathan Schwartz: So that's my addiction [00:23:00] didn't start until about 2010.

Caleb Newquist: Okay.

Jonathan Schwartz: Um, so I had a six year run. Um, so between, you know, in the early 2000 when Linkin Park started in 2000, as I said earlier, I was all about the family and being professional and growing my book of business and, um, and, you know, and then 2010 comes and that's when my spiraling out of control started.

Caleb Newquist: Right. So before we get to that, I want to. So if [00:23:30] I remember the timeline. Right. Um, Alanis Morissette became your client in around. Was it around 2008?

Jonathan Schwartz: Yes. She was my first big name client at that time. And then followed by more. Yes.

Caleb Newquist: Okay. And so what's interesting is that I made a note to this to myself. But what this is, um. This is over. This is like a dozen years after Jagged Little Pill. So she's been she's been a you know, that record was a massive success. Um, one of the biggest, you know, [00:24:00] selling records of all, of all time. And so what are the what were the circumstances, circumstances of her coming to you? Uh, you know, so long after that initial, like, massive success of hers.

Jonathan Schwartz: So she she fired her business manager at the time and she took, you know, I'm going to make this up about half a dozen to a dozen business management meetings to see who would be her new business manager. And I know she has a a song there. Ironic, but it is. [00:24:30] What's ironic here is that the reason she hired me is I was the only one of the candidates that she was considering for business management to bring to her the meeting, uh, visual aids, like source documents to present to her. Here's what a tour budget looks like. Here's what I do to manage your monthly budget personally and or professionally. And she was impressed with that. And, um, I was impressed with her. You know, she put up on a whiteboard here's here's sort of like the organizational structure of Alanis Morissette. [00:25:00] And she's super intellect. She's really brilliant. And she didn't deserve what I did. But we can talk about that later. But so as a result of my transparency. At that time. She retained my services and we had a wonderful relationship. Um, I would see her mostly every month, and that continued even through my addiction.

Caleb Newquist: And so that must have been that must have been huge for you and also even and [00:25:30] for GSO, too. I mean, I'm sure you had other big names, but Alanis, um, I think at that point, even though it had been so long since her initial success, I mean, signing somebody like that must have been must have been great. You must have felt great.

Jonathan Schwartz: Yeah, it really felt great. And to some degree, it it accelerated my high ego. You know, I landed my first real client. Um, I was really heavy in the R&B and hip hop world. Before that, I [00:26:00] was known as that, that business manager for that genre. But yes. Alana Alanis, excuse me. Really, really helped me get the opportunities that I had. You know, that Linkin Park being the next one and so on and so forth. And, uh, you know, I really like I said, I really cared about her, but we'll talk more about that, I'm sure, later.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Okay. So then, so 2010, you mentioned it. It's like that's when that's when, you know, maybe some problems [00:26:30] with gambling or maybe not problems, at least at the outset. But gambling and drugs. Like was there something that precipitated that behavior. Was there something that happened either in your personal life or in your professional life that that caused you to kind of start?

Jonathan Schwartz: So I was coaching my three sons in all their youth sports, and, um, I think it was my middle son when I was coaching him, that my assistant coach is like a quasi professional [00:27:00] poker player, and he asked me if I want to bet on sports. I said, sure, and, uh, obviously a place that's very small. Bet. And then I placed another small bet and another bet. It became larger and larger and progressively I became addicted to gambling. I wasn't addicted to drugs until probably 2015. Um, you know, the last, you know, when I really stopped gambling and really started to subconsciously try and kill myself, um, I have, I have coronary artery [00:27:30] disease, so starting to do cocaine every day, 24 hours a day and waking up with wet sheets on my bed, um, with my heart pounding wasn't a very smart move by me. Um, so I just probably couldn't take I know I couldn't take for six years I lived a life I hope nobody ever experiences, where every night I went to bed and if I heard a siren, I got scared I was going to come get arrested. Um. And I lived in fear. I couldn't sleep. And so I ultimately, [00:28:00] toward the end, I resorted to becoming addicted and dependent on cocaine and all the risky behaviors that are associated with cocaine. And it was just awful. But thankfully, I was able to identify reasons to live and my three beautiful sons and at the time, my wife and my mother and my stepfather and grateful for being alive today.

Caleb Newquist: And I think, I mean, gambling is something that I think a I don't know, you can keep me honest [00:28:30] here, but like in terms of like addiction, alcohol gets a lot of attention and drugs obviously get a lot of attention. And I think gambling is generally known that that is something that plagues people and troubles people. But I think compared to some of the other addictions that people face, it's a little bit, I don't know, it's maybe not as um, as, as well understood. Kind of just like, like the broader population. What was it about? What was what was it about gambling for you that [00:29:00] Do you have a sense of like, what was the compulsion of it? Like, were you addicted to the losing or are you addicted to kind of the adrenaline for the possibility of winning? Like, how do you when you look back on that, what was it? What was what was it about for you?

Jonathan Schwartz: Yeah. And before I answer that, I'll just add to what you were saying earlier. Like, so gambling is a behavioral addiction. And it's got the highest correlation between with suicidality because you're dealing with someone's finances. And [00:29:30] so, you know, I never enjoyed gambling. I mean, once I started, once I took from Alanis the first I'm making this up called Just Dollars. Yeah. The idea was I'm going to borrow it from her and I'm going to pay her back this next week. Now, I had my own money because I was making good money, but I didn't want anybody to know what I was doing, including my wife at the time. So I'm like, let me just borrow this. Well, that just led to become immersed in gambling every day, calling my bookie. Literally [00:30:00] every day for six years. And I did not enjoy the highs. And I certainly did not enjoy. And I certainly hated the lows. Um, you know, I was chasing to pay back Alanis and then ultimately chasing the payback. A handful of other clients. It was something I didn't enjoy, and I wish I would have had the courage to ask for help early.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Now, when? So what was the situation that you were? Were you just in a hole [00:30:30] with your. Were you in a were you in like, did you have a debt that you needed to pay? And that was what precipitated the first time that you took money from Alanis?

Jonathan Schwartz: No, it really wasn't about the money until I started to really get, you know, lose money like that first time I shared with you every. I was just a terrible gambler. Um, you know, there's no good gambler, but I would bet on every game on the board on Saturday with college football, and I wouldn't just bet on the game. I'd bet on the totals. [00:31:00] The part I'd parlay and tease and the over unders. I mean, you can't win that way, but I was so determined to pay her back and then to pay back. Like I said, the other clients that I embezzled from, that was my motivation, I hated it, I really hated gambling, but because I was insecure and not comfortable with myself, I was afraid to ask for help and to be honest with my struggles.

Caleb Newquist: And did your and and your [00:31:30] your your wife, your business partners, did they know anything about this?

Jonathan Schwartz: No. Nobody knew a single thing.

Caleb Newquist: So it was a secret that you are keeping to yourself. And so that is I mean, that's a hard that's an incredibly hard thing to have to do.

Jonathan Schwartz: Yeah. I was living a double life.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah.

Jonathan Schwartz: I mean, I was truly living a double life. I know that's used often, but for me it applies. I was to the outer world, to to the entertainment space and to everyone in my community. I was the successful business manager [00:32:00] inside. I was low self-esteem, insecure, in fear of getting caught, violating my client's fiduciary responsibility that I had. And I just hated myself. And all I wanted to do was pay him back and move on with my career and try and be more present for my kids and for my wife and for my mother and my stepfather and and everybody.

Caleb Newquist: Yep. And so what? And and you mentioned [00:32:30] that, you know, you were you were kind of revered within, you know, the the entertainment community. You you were recognized at some point, I believe. I saw it in The Hollywood Reporter. You were recognized as like a top business manager. And and so when you say that, you aren't just saying that you you were recognized by your peers and by by trade press that, you know, covered your industry?

Jonathan Schwartz: Yeah. And the truth is, the recognition isn't because of who I am. Because really, nobody cares about Jonathan Schwartz. Even [00:33:00] then, it was because of my client roster. You're only as good as your clients, right? And I was fortunate enough to work with some of the best clients in music, film, TV and professional sports. And it's because of them that I was recognized as a successful business manager.

Caleb Newquist: Yep. Okay, so. So how so? How long does this how long does this go on? Because it's it's if I understand it right, you you got yourself in a position where it's just like, okay, I borrowed a little bit of money and [00:33:30] I used it to gamble, and I lost and I borrowed a little bit more. And so it's just kind of this vicious cycle. So how long does this kind of. And you're and you're desperate because you want to do right by your clients because you have this. It sounds it sounds strange. It probably sounds strange to people listening. But what you're saying is like, because you cared about your clients so much, you wanted to make good by them and get and pay them back. But because of the nature of the circumstances, you couldn't you couldn't just tell them, you couldn't ask for help. Um, so [00:34:00] how long does this go on?

Jonathan Schwartz: Six years. Every day for six years. Um, I turned over my phone records to the federal government when I was ultimately, um, sentenced prior to sentencing. Excuse me. And every day for six years, I showed them that I called the bookie sometimes twice a day. I mean, I was a real degenerate, and I like I said, I was chasing it to make the clients whole. Now, by the way, the clients did get whole, ultimately. And, um, that's never really been [00:34:30] reported by the media because the media doesn't like to portray, you know, the good side of a story, if you will. Right. But, um, it doesn't make what I did wrong, right? But I'm glad that they got paid back.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. And at at any point during those six years, were there ever any close calls? Was there anything that ever occurred to you where it's like that? Was that like, oh, so-and-so almost found out? Or one of the partners asked me something. One of my partners asked me something that [00:35:00] could have maybe uncovered what was going on or or was it was it pretty? Did you did you keep it contained to yourself pretty well during that entire time?

Jonathan Schwartz: There was a time of about probably six months before I was caught, um, where my clients heard that I took, like, um, my client, my my partner's, excuse me, knew that I was taking money, but I lied to the bank every week to get the money on behalf of the client. And I lied to my partners. My [00:35:30] client A, B, C, or D needed the money at some point about six months prior to getting caught, maybe a little longer. They they asked what Alanis did with this recent cash withdrawal, and I lied to them and said it's because she was investing in a cannabis business. A lot of my former employees have come to me subsequent to my sentencing and when I when I came back into society in 2020 and said that they knew, the partners knew. But because I was the Rainmaker, [00:36:00] they never really pushed me hard enough to find out the truth. And I. And you know what? To be honest, I should have told them the truth. My partners were amazing guys and they, like my clients, didn't deserve the lying and the deceit and the manipulation that I presented from 2010 for six years.

Caleb Newquist: I want to ask you something a little bit about how the relationships work for a business manager and like in the entertainment world. So if I remember right, because you [00:36:30] were able to make these cash withdrawals on behalf of your clients, is that is that kind of a is that a typical arrangement? I'm just curious if that's something that is just a common practice, because if it if that's the case, then it just seems like there's a lot of like that. A lot of these clients would be vulnerable at, at, at some, at some key places. So I'm just curious about the, the, the typical practices and for business [00:37:00] managers in the entertainment world.

Jonathan Schwartz: Yeah, it's a great question. And when my book comes out, you're going to see me disrupt the the entertainment space by disclosing a lot of things that are wrong with the within the entertainment community and to ask clients, you know, celebrities to be more proactive in their financial affairs. Because, yes, it's very common for business managers to have power of attorney to pay the client's bills because a lot of the clients, you know, are on the road, whether it's the music clients, touring or the actors [00:37:30] or actresses, you know, filming in another country or another state, a movie or athletes playing in their hometown or wherever they're playing. So we were trusted advisors. Obviously, I violated their trust, but we were in general, business managers are trusted advisors and they have the power of attorney. Now, there are safeguards a business manager should create where clients can see, you know, how their money is being spent. Um, and unfortunately, clients, [00:38:00] a lot of clients don't ask for that information. Had Alanis asked for a source, I would go to Alanis house every month and present an Excel spreadsheet that I created. Had she asked me and you asked me earlier, I would get scared every time I walked into her house for a meeting that she would ask me for a source document, i.e. a bank statement that reconciled with my spreadsheet. Had she done that, I would have been caught right then and there. But she never asked and I certainly didn't present one. But that happens a lot [00:38:30] within the business management world right now where there's not enough transparency. And I encourage celebrities, if any, to listen to this, to really be proactive and ask for source documents.

Caleb Newquist: Right. And so let's talk about that a little bit more. Because in your experience did the majority of your clients, did they just want you to take care of all the money stuff because they didn't want to deal with it? And is that is that typical for the entertainment [00:39:00] world, or is it is it more of a balanced mix of like, oh no, there's plenty of clients where they're they're super involved and they and they do want to know these kinds of things. Or is it really lopsided in the direction of they really just want all the financial stuff to be taken care of. And, and they're putting all that trust in, in somebody like who you were at that time.

Jonathan Schwartz: It's a great question. You know, today's celebrities, especially the young artists today treat their music or acting or professional sports as a business. I [00:39:30] see it more in music than I did in the professional sports side. You know, it was a business. So they were very proactive and, you know, like for example, Linkin Park, they had six band members. Many of them could have been doctors and lawyers. They were super. They you know, the first time I got on their tour bus, I was thinking sex, drugs and rock n roll. I get on their tour bus and they're playing video games and they're nerds. That's who they were, and that's what made them. That's why they were so successful, because they were all humble, and they all had high expectations [00:40:00] for me and how we would and how I would help them with their finances. And they had very strong internal controls and source documents that they wanted to see. And like I said earlier, they helped shape me to become a better business manager. And many artists today are much like that. It's no longer sex, drugs and rock n roll for many, but of course they're still out there, young and immature, that resort to the sex, drugs, and rock n roll era.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, and it sounds like so [00:40:30] it sounds like in Alanis's case, it sounds like she was engaged. Like you saw her every month and she asked for things, but it was almost like she didn't. She needed to go one step further to really, you know, she was trusting, but she wasn't verifying 100%. And that's and it sounds like that's that's where there was maybe a gap in her. Well, that's what left her vulnerable in that case.

Jonathan Schwartz: Yeah. Correct. I mean, I should have presented her the source documents, but I knew I was stealing money [00:41:00] at that time. Yeah. And so I didn't. But, you know, it's it's like you said, she put her trust in me, and I violated that. But you're 100% correct.

Caleb Newquist: So. So it's coming to the end of this. And you and you and your partners, your partners ask you about. I think you said they ask you about some cash withdrawals, and you say, Alanis, you know, she she wants to do this. Um, uh, I think you said it was a, was it a recreational marijuana at that time or was it [00:41:30] medical? It was a marijuana business of some kind. Yeah. And so then did so then. Then there's a meeting amongst some of her team and then the GSO team. Right. Like what? What happens at that stage when like it's almost it's about ready. It's kind of a come to Jesus meeting right at that point.

Jonathan Schwartz: So before that if, if the crossroad of when I got caught or how I got caught was I was I also represented Beyonce and she was starting [00:42:00] her lemonade tour in Tampa Bay. And, uh, I was there to make sure that the production costs and all of our costs were managed appropriately and to help her with the profit margin. And she Beyonce is one of the hardest working people I've ever met. And I get a call from one of my partners saying that they received the call from Alana's business managers, asking what you did with $4.6 million of Alana's money. And now I was still in denial and [00:42:30] Uber scared, and I just came up with a lie and said again, she invests. What? Same thing. I told the banks she invested it in cannabis business. And so shortly after that, I had to leave and come back. And this is now 2016. May my wife and I are celebrating our anniversary in Santa Barbara, and on May 8th, my former partner calls me and says, we need you to come do a lie detector test. Will you do it? You said you would. Now, [00:43:00] mind you, I'm in the hotel room snorting cocaine and gambling, and now I have to come clean with my wife.

Jonathan Schwartz: Now my ex-wife, and tell her the truth. And, uh, because, again, nobody knew, including her. And she was supportive. She's like, let's Google how to beat a lie detector test. So we googled how to beat a lie detector test, and, uh, and the next day, I'm sorry. Now, on May 8th, I drive down to Beverly Hills from [00:43:30] Santa Barbara to meet with this former FBI polygrapher. And I'm doing lines of cocaine. Who's going to be the lie detector test? Doing lines of cocaine on your way to the lie detector test? But Jonathan Schwartz and I placed my last bet because my sober date's May 9th, 2016. So May 8th. That happened. And I went there with an ego. I went there high as a kite. I went there believing I could beat this system. And after the exam, um, [00:44:00] I called my attorney, who's Nathan Hochman, who's now the Los Angeles district attorney, and, uh, he said, Jonathan, you failed the test worse than anybody the Polygrapher has ever worked with. So at that moment, my access to GSO business management computers was no longer.

Caleb Newquist: Was shut off. Yeah.

Jonathan Schwartz: Now I'm scared. I'm about to go to prison for the rest of my life. That's what came to my head. Catastrophizing. And so [00:44:30] that was that crossroad for me.

Caleb Newquist: And so I want to I want to go one step back because I remember this part of the story, and I think we skipped over it a little bit. Alanis. At some point she confronted you. She she asked you for something, and you, you refused to provide her. And I don't know what it was, if it was a bank statement or if it was an if it was a financial, a personal financial statement or what. But she asked you for something, you didn't provide it. And she she asked you several times subsequent to that. [00:45:00] And that kind of unraveled the relationship. And she ultimately fired you and went to another business manager.

Jonathan Schwartz: So before, um, so she fired me before she had, you know, asked me those questions that you mentioned. Okay. She fired me in 2015 because I wasn't giving her the attention that she once had because, um, truthfully, because she knew that I had bigger name clients at that time, no disrespect, [00:45:30] and she felt that I was giving them the attention, more attention than her. And she was right. Unfortunately, she was right. And then later on, as you know, sometime in the first quarter of 2016, you know, before May, when I was asked to do the test, polygraph test, um, her, her business manager called me ironically there again, she hired my cousin, the one who I worked for and started my career. He came back from Chase Manhattan Bank to to start [00:46:00] business management again, and she went to his firm and his partner, Howard called me and said, what happened with this money? I lied to him again, but I'll get you something to show proof. I'll sign. I'll have her. I'll I'll have her show you what? I'll show you what Alanis signed. Alanis didn't sign anything, right. So I continued to lie. And that's ultimately why. That's when I got caught. When I just couldn't prove right.

Caleb Newquist: Because which is which is when and it happens. It happens in all kinds [00:46:30] of businesses where if a client leaves and goes to another service provider or whatever, it's common practice to say, hey, can you provide all your records to assist in the transition from one professional to another? So what was happening wasn't unusual, right?

Jonathan Schwartz: Right. And to add to that, I was so careless and wanted to get caught so badly that when that call came in 2015, fourth quarter, I just told the bookkeeper, just give them all the general, all the all that they need, knowing [00:47:00] darn well that that's going to lead to them doing an audit and see that where that the money is just shown as a cash withdrawal not allocated to any specific expense. So, um, I knew subconsciously that I just wanted to get caught.

Caleb Newquist: And when that happened, did you feel relieved.

Jonathan Schwartz: When I.

Caleb Newquist: Got. Yeah, yeah. Well, when, when you, when you knew. When you knew you were providing the materials [00:47:30] that were going to lead, ultimately lead to you being caught. Did you feel relieved at that point or were you still kind of catastrophizing and what did it only happen when when you were confronted with the evidence?

Jonathan Schwartz: The latter I was catastrophizing still, I was I knew inevitably I'd get caught, and I was just thinking about how much I was going to embarrass my children and my wife and everybody else and the entertainment space, the community I lived in. And I knew it was inevitable. But, you know, [00:48:00] people said, why don't you, you know, or I said to myself, why don't you leave the country? I'm not going to leave the country. So. Right. You know, I'm just going to accept my whatever the consequences are at this point. And then ultimately, when I got that call to take the lie detector test, that's and then failed, that was the moment I really started to get scared. Like thinking 20, 30 years prison and not being able to see my kids. It really was painful.

Caleb Newquist: Right. Okay, so [00:48:30] you you you you you give the worst performance on a lie detector test in the history of lie detector tests. And and and so then and so then what happens next? Or like how do and you don't have to go into the painstaking detail, but essentially what what's kind of the next phase like in terms of like being charged and the resolution and, and how how did that go?

Jonathan Schwartz: So I immediately Nathan immediately [00:49:00] contacted, um, the prosecutor that was assigned to my case and worked out a plea agreement for 4 to 6 years. Um, when I heard that it will likely be five, I was scared. We were asking for a year and a half. Um, at sentencing on May 3rd, 2017. The hardest thing I ever experienced in my entire life was seeing on the side of the federal government, my ex-wife now, and my middle son and I [00:49:30] just sitting in the room waiting for the judge to tell me how many years, and then seeing them was really hard. Um, the judge could have deviated and given me more than six years. I'm grateful that she didn't, but she gave me six years while the federal government wanted five. And, uh, it seemed like an eternity at that time. And I was, you know, obviously upset and but, you know, as I've had time to reflect, I deserved my six years. I didn't serve all [00:50:00] six years, but I deserved my sentencing of six years. I deserved over eight years of giving my life to the government. I'm the one that made the poor choices. And, you know, I don't have you know, there aren't just those five, six direct victims of my crime. There's also the indirect clients who put their trust in me, although I didn't take from them, embarrassed them. There's also my family. There's also people in my community. I've hurt so many people because of my poor choices, and I [00:50:30] don't live in my past. But I don't forget my past. And today I'm on a whole new journey of recovery and helping others.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, and so I want to talk about the I definitely want to talk about that. Can you just say a little bit restitution was part of, uh, your, uh, your pleading guilty as well. Like that's something that we like in a lot of the stories that we do on this podcast. The restitution piece is always part of it. How did that work for you? [00:51:00] Because it's it's it's millions of dollars that you're you're ordered to repay. Um, is that something that you're in the process of doing or how does the restitution part of it work?

Jonathan Schwartz: So I'm very transparent. So I have an $8.65 million dollar restitution. Yep. Um, the court 1.7. Um, the extra money, aside from what I embezzled was what it cost my firm. At least that's what they said. It cost them to hire attorney, [00:51:30] retain attorneys, forensic accountants. The loss of some clients. Um, but I'll give you more of those details in my book. That'll be a lot more specific, but, um, I pay every month. I make a payment to them. Even in prison, if it was $25, I started to pay that back. Um, when I came home, the government assessed the larger amount I paid. That, and I continue to pay. Every month I go to the bank, get the cashier's check, and send it off. It's no longer with the Criminal Division because I'm off probation, but I still [00:52:00] owe the restitution, and I'll still keep my obligation to pay. You know what they ask me to pay? I mean, today I don't make money, but I'm the happiest. A lot of money. But I'm the happiest I've ever been.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, yeah. So let's talk about. Let's talk about your just your your time in prison and the beginning of your sobriety. Um, so so when did that happen? Did you get sober before you reported to prison, or did you get sober in prison? Like, what was what was kind of the beginning of of that.

Jonathan Schwartz: I got sober about [00:52:30] 14 months before or 15 months before I was sentenced. So May 9th, 2016, I went after failing that lie detector test. I was I became sober. Um, worked the program very, you know, not as committed as I probably should have been early in my recovery, but I still made it because I had a great sponsor, and some great people around me carried that abstinence all the way through to today. But, um, it was hard. I mean, you know, it's, uh, in prison was really hard to be [00:53:00] sober because I don't know what people think about prisons, but I can tell you that there's a lot of contraband that's brought into prison and very easy for people to get drugs and alcohol and, um, and even gamble. Um, but thankfully, um, I'm able I was able to use my time in prison to be productive and wise and to learn from my mistakes and to know what I wanted to do when I, you know, finally was, was let out of discharged from prison, if you will. Um, [00:53:30] and that was to help other people. But prison was hard. I mean, um, I was at a camp, which is the lowest level in terms of security. Uh, I met some really amazing people, some of which I talked to today.

Jonathan Schwartz: Um, I taught a victim impact program in prison. Uh, every it was a 7 or 9 week program. And inmates, you know, about ten inmates would would apply for it. And it was really to teach or to help the inmates understand that they have [00:54:00] victims of their crime, whether it's white collar or otherwise. And a lot of the drug dealers had had some challenges understanding who their victims were. So, for example, drug white collar guys for the most part, even though they had trouble identifying victims and acknowledging they had victims, the drug dealers said, well, wait a second, Jonathan. You know, all I did was sell them drugs. I said, precisely, and if they said if I didn't sell drugs, someone else would have sold them drugs. True. But you sold them drugs. You don't know who became addicted. [00:54:30] You don't know who overdosed. So you have victims out there. And once they got that and accepted that, listening to them talk to their loved ones on the phone changed dramatically. Instead of hearing them yell on the phones, they would be so kind to their partners and tell them how much they miss and love them so.

Caleb Newquist: So it sounds like I mean, I think prison is something that those of us that have never done, [00:55:00] those of us that have never been to prison, like as you know, it's in a way it's kind of romanticized in TVs and movies. But like, for you. I mean, you're going, you got sober and you're and you're processing your behavior like it. That does feel like because you're really just in there by yourself and you kind of you're, you're you're reckoning with your choices. And then you're also because of what you just told us about, you know, access to still having access to drugs [00:55:30] and alcohol and gambling. You're, you know, you're also trying to stay sober. Was that a difficult like you said, it was a difficult time. Was was sobriety difficult for you during that time as well, or was it was the experience of prison really kind of that that was the difficult that was kind of the, the, the majority of the difficulty.

Jonathan Schwartz: It was definitely the majority of the difficulty was not the sobriety. I knew I was committed when I, you know, I knew my consequences before I went [00:56:00] to prison, which included getting sentenced. Right. I'm risk averse. I'm a nerd today. I'm a super proud nerd. Um, but, you know, prison was was hard because, you know, I had a type A personality. You have no control over the outside world. You know, I wasn't able to, God forbid my my younger son at the time, who was still in high school. Middle school and then high school. Um, I couldn't even ask his teachers to send me his report card. I couldn't ask his mom because we didn't talk, you know? How's his health [00:56:30] condition? Is there anything you know? I had no control, and that really was hard for me to accept. And once I accepted that, probably six months into my sentence or. Excuse me, my my, my time in prison, I realized it's time to surrender to my higher power. And it's time for me to figure out how to be more productive here. So I would wake up early in the morning. I had a great job in education. I worked in a computer lab. Um, and, you know, I would be the first one to get up in the morning. And [00:57:00] as soon as they opened, call it our little wing, I was able to go outside and walk on the track. Um, and then I would read a lot. I never read so much in my life as much as I read in prison, and I tried to use my time wisely, and there were days that I cried, and there were days that I didn't cry. And, um, I just couldn't wait for the time that I was going to be let go and so I could reenter society because I was ready. I've learned from my mistakes.

Caleb Newquist: And so when that. [00:57:30] So when that day finally came, like, did you have a plan? Had you you'd had all that time to think what when you were released, you were released in 2020, if I remember right. Is that right?

Jonathan Schwartz: Yes. I was released April 16th, 2020 because of Covid. So I was released like nine months early.

Caleb Newquist: Okay. And so at that, at that point, uh, what was your plan? What what did you think you were going to do?

Jonathan Schwartz: So I was [00:58:00] with a woman who I thought I was was my fiance at the time, but she was cheating on me while in college, so she was required to pick me up. So she picked me up and she told me I'm sleeping on her couch. And I'm now being on home confinement for 16 months with an ankle monitor. And when I found out that she was cheating on me this whole time, um, and reasons why I was sleeping on her couch, I just called my mom and asked her to please cosign a studio apartment for me, which had to be in [00:58:30] the same apartment building as this woman, because that's where my probation address was, and I could see her for nine months every day. My ex, the fiance at the time with her boyfriend on the balcony, and I was sitting playing self-pity on the couch every day like, woo me! But this might sound funny to those that don't understand recovery, but when I turned it over to my higher power, there was a message I got from a higher power that really helped me. And it was Jonathan, you cheated [00:59:00] on your wife, so now you know what it feels like to be cheated on by a woman. And that's the lesson I needed to learn. So today, in my relationships with, you know, women I date. I assure them the last thing I'm going to do is is cheat on you. Like, I'm much more mature, and I think I'm emotionally present person today for them. But it was really hard coming back into society, not just because of that, but as a felon, which I still am labeled as a felon, uh, who's well educated.

Jonathan Schwartz: I couldn't get a job. [00:59:30] I had to take a job at Dunkin Donuts, of all places. And I worked there for two, three months, got fired because I wasn't cleaning the floors and mopping the cabinets well, and it was really tough for me to swallow, but it really brought me to be a more humble person. And humility is what this program is about. And today I have a very small ego because all people have egos, to what degree is different? But I practice humility and gratitude every day, and I'm grateful [01:00:00] for I am. So that led me to go to study, um, addiction studies. And I went to addiction studies school. I got my cdac as a certified addiction drug counselor, and then I went to, um, marriage and family therapy grad school to become a therapist. And that specializes in addiction and trauma. So right now I work at Altus Rehab, um, in Encino, a six bed luxury detox and residential treatment center. And I'm a program director here. I'm a sponsor to people, [01:00:30] and I work at another treatment center called the Chabad Treatment Center in LA, where I do teletherapy with their clients. And it's just such a joy every day to know that at least you're trying to make a positive impact on their lives. And that's why I say today I'm the happiest I've ever been, because I'm doing something that I love, and I'm contributing to help people not make the same mistakes that I made.

Caleb Newquist: Right, right, I know, I know enough about recovery to be dangerous, and I know that making amends [01:01:00] is is a is a is an important part of of the recovery process. Have you been able to make amends with your clients and the and your family?

Jonathan Schwartz: Well, that's a great question. Yes, I made amends to my family. Um, my two of my three sons don't really want to have a relationship with me at this time. It's nine years later. My middle, my younger son and I talk every day. My older son does see me about 4 or 5 times a year. He calls me Jonathan. That that hurts. [01:01:30] Um, but again, it's their journey. And it's their journey because I put them in the situation to feel the way they feel. I respect that when the time is right. My higher power will put them back into my life. I miss them very much. Um, my mom is battling stage four lung cancer for over a decade. I speak to her every day for 36, you know, for a minute and tell her I love her because you never know, right? She. She's forgiven me. My stepfather's forgiven me. A lot of people have forgiven [01:02:00] me. But I have not made amends to my former partners. One who, unfortunately, who passed away early last year. He was my Michael Oppenheim. He was my favorite partner. I miss him so much. Um, I thought about making amends to his wife and daughter. But you don't make amends when it could cause harm to others. So I've been advised not to make amends to her and to the daughter. Now, my other former partners, I do want to make amends to. And I hope I'm able to do that in the next month or so. I wasn't able [01:02:30] to make amends until I completed probation, which was on April. I'm sorry, August 16th of last year. So now I'm starting to talk to my sponsor about making amends to them. And you don't make amends with the expectation that people are always going to receive your amends? Well, you just really do it for yourself. So I do want to make amends. You know, I'm even going to try to reach out to Alanis and five other clients or so that I embezzled from, and some of the other professionals in the entertainment community, and try my best to make amends, because [01:03:00] that's important for me.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. Jonathan, this has been great. I really appreciate you sharing your story. Uh, it takes a lot of courage, I think, to do what you're doing because, I don't know, it's. Lots of people aren't able to do what you do because of, uh, whether it's or it's shame or or something else. I think being able to talk about it is definitely [01:03:30] going to help people. And you are you're helping people in your work, as you said, you're the happiest you've ever been. And it's because you're getting to help people that have, you know, that are experiencing things that are similar to what you experienced. Um, I wish you the best of luck.

Jonathan Schwartz: Thank you, Caleb, so much for having me here, and I appreciate you giving me this platform to be vulnerable and transparent.

Caleb Newquist: Okay, [01:04:00] that was me and Jonathan Todd Schwartz. I hope you enjoyed it. I enjoyed talking to him. Um, yeah. Uh, best of luck to Jonathan. Uh, it's I don't know, it's it's a it was it is quite a story, uh, sad, but also hopeful. So. Yeah. Best of luck, Jonathan. Um, lessons. What did we learn? Uh, well, gambling is bad. Gambling can lead to fraud. We've talked about that a [01:04:30] lot. It comes up in a lot of our episodes. The only other fraudster that we've talked to on this podcast so far, uh, Nathan Mueller, he also had was a gambling addict and also, I believe, an alcoholic, as I recall. Um, and so though that that is something that is a huge factor in a lot of fraud cases. And this is about as a typical or as as a, as [01:05:00] a, as a simple as a straightforward as an example of, of someone with a gambling addiction who committed fraud to really, you know, in Jonathan's telling of it is he wanted to make good on his clients. He just borrowed a little money to make some bets, and then he lost it and he felt responsible. But the only thing that he thought to do was to take more money and gamble that and able to win it back. And that is a it's very that's a vicious cycle. So [01:05:30] in any case, yeah. Gambling. Um, I think it was Greg. I think Greg used to say on the show, it's like if anyone in Europe, if anyone on your accounting team or if you're a celebrity and your business manager likes taking trips to Las Vegas.

Caleb Newquist: Maybe find another business manager. So that's that's maybe a big lesson. I think the other thing that was interesting that he talked about was, uh, the the common practice within the [01:06:00] entertainment world for business managers, which is to to have a lot of control over access to their clients, uh, bank accounts. That is extremely if I, if if I was a celebrity and I was listening to that and I think I'd go call my business manager right now and say, uh, do you have access to all my bank accounts without, you know, without my permission? Uh, because if you do, then let's change that, because [01:06:30] I, I just listened to a podcast. Um, that is a that's a huge vulnerability, I think in, in this aspect of, of business management. And I know show business is kind of its own thing, and it's kind of used to doing things its own way. But. That's got to be that's something that people, if they're not looking out for it, hopefully they are looking out for it. Now, it sounds like some of the younger up and coming, you know, whether it's musicians or actors, it [01:07:00] sounds like they're a little bit more, uh, engaged as far as the financial piece of it is concerned.

Caleb Newquist: Uh, but if if you're out there and you're listening to this and you want to make sure that you have you you have to okay, every single withdrawal made by your business manager, that might be that might be a good thing to do. So it'll be interesting to see what comes out of his book. It sounds like he's he's got some, uh, he's got some tea to [01:07:30] spill, uh, on on how things are done in show business, but we'll see. We'll see. Okay. That's it for this episode. And remember, only do cocaine before a lie detector test. If you want to fail that lie detector test like no one has ever failed a lie detector test in the history of lie detector tests. If you want to drop us a line, send us an email at Omi. Fraud@earmark.com o. My fraud is created, written, produced and hosted by me. Caleb Newquist Zach Frank is my co-producer, [01:08:00] audio engineer, music supervisor, and loyal Lakers fan. Laura Hobbs did our new artwork. Thank you! Laura looks great. I hope you people like it. I thought it looked good. Rate review and subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. If you listen on earmark, earn CPE in the process. Do that. Cpas, CMAs, whoever you are, get some CPE. On your mark. Join us next time for more average swindlers and scams from stories [01:08:30] that will make you say oh my fraud!