There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Caleb Newquist: Decades before he was a Booker Prize winning novelist Richard Flanagan was just another young writer trying to finish his first book. It was late spring 1991. Flanagan was broke. His wife was pregnant with twins, and he had no real prospects except one Ghostwrite the autobiography of Australia's most notorious con man, John Friedrich. The fee $10,000. But there was a catch. It had to be done in six weeks. Flanagan [00:00:30] took the job the next day. Flanagan flew to Melbourne, where he met Friedrich and tried to learn all he could about the man in order to tell the remarkable story of his life. Unfortunately, Friedrich was anything but cooperative. Dodging Flanagan's questions and sharing nothing about himself. But then, three weeks into this strange and difficult assignment, Flanagan hit an even bigger snag. Friedrich was dead.

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Caleb Newquist: This is on My Fraud, a true crime podcast where the truth is the fraud and the lies [00:01:30] are totally on the level. I'm Caleb Newquist. Hello my friends. How's it going? Are you healthy, wealthy and wise? Two out of three. One out of three. I think. You know, most of us would settle for two out of three or even one out of three some days. Um, although I have to imagine that if you were healthy and wealthy, though, you could give a shit. If you're wise. I mean, maybe that's just my experience. Healthy and wealthy people who aren't wise think they're wise, which [00:02:00] suggests to me at least that they're not actually wise. Meanwhile, if you're aware of your non wisdom, doesn't that actually make you wise? I don't know. That's the puzzling thing about I guess American culture is the idea that if you're wealthy that that somehow just makes up for the rest of it. Anyway, when this episode comes out, it will be after April 15th. So if you're one of our accountant listeners and I know you're out there, uh, who, you know, do the tax thing, then I [00:02:30] hope you're okay. I hope you survived it. All right. It's a rough road. And honestly, that's why I got out of it. It's. It's bullshit. It's not for me. Uh, but no judgment. I just figured, you know, I would give you guys a guys and gals and whatever collective noun. Can somebody come up with a collective noun that just gets everybody included? That would be great.

Caleb Newquist: Anyway, I just wanted to shout out everybody who just went through a tax season, so hopefully it was all right. Anyway. Should we do some mail? [00:03:00] Let's do some mail. Hello. I'm listening to this podcast while out on maternity leave. So first of all, you guys make a captivating podcast, not just for CPE. Second, the reason I wanted to write in. It's intriguing to me that there isn't, as Miriam pointed out, a statute for being criminally reckless with people's money the way there is with harming people physically. Where is the manslaughter charge equivalent? People were irate that folks from Enron, Waste Management, Anderson, etc. didn't face criminal conviction even [00:03:30] though people's entire savings or retirement accounts were tied up with the funds lost by these corporations. On the one hand, you want people to take risks in business, but I'm curious if we had something like this, people wouldn't be out bundling bad investments like it's 2006 right now. Not sure if I have complete trains of thought right now. See aforementioned maternity leave, but hopefully you can catch my drift. Thanks again for your work, Jess. Uh, thanks. Uh, yeah. Thanks, Jess. And I just have to quibble with [00:04:00] one thing in your email. Enron Chairman Ken Lay and CEO Jeff Skilling were both convicted of criminal charges. Ken Lay died a few months before he could be sentenced, so his conviction was vacated. Skilling, though he was convicted and did time served like a dozen years.

Caleb Newquist: So that's not nothing. You know, he you know, dozen years. I don't want to do a dozen years. I don't think anyone wants to do a dozen years. So anyway. But Jeff Skilling, if you'd like to come on the show and talk about that [00:04:30] and everything else, that would be great anyway. But more to your point, Jess, uh, I don't know where the manslaughter fraud charges are, and it seems like we could make use of something like that. And, you know, with this current administration and Congress, you kind of have to think that conditions are right for some legislation that would go easier on white collar criminals. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if they proposed just getting rid of criminal charges for white collar criminals altogether. But, you know, we'll [00:05:00] see what happens. Anyway, if you're wondering what we're talking about, check out episode 78 with Brooklyn law vice Dean Miriam Baer. We had a great conversation with her. We learned a lot. And if you're missing Greg and that was the last time you heard his voice, then go back and listen again. There you go. Okay, how about, uh, how about some reviews? We haven't read reviews in a few. So here's one from Connie on the earmark app. Uh, about [00:05:30] the monkey business at the Columbus Zoo. That's episode 79. Interesting case, especially since it's so recent. Hadn't heard anything about it. Of course, I don't live in Ohio.

Caleb Newquist: Thanks. Yeah. Connie. Uh, that one was new to me, too. Uh, I think it was probably new to a lot of people. Uh, probably everyone outside of Ohio had not maybe heard of that case, but anyway, glad you enjoyed it. Uh, but as a matter of fact, here's Tom, who also writes on the earmark app. I am in Columbus and this is an excellent [00:06:00] recap of the fraud. There you go. Thanks for the validation, Tom. Finally, here's Missy, also on the earmark app. Love love love you guys are awesome. And to think I'm earning CPE is simply delightful. Thanks. Well you're welcome. Thanks for listening anyway. Thanks to everyone who rates or reviews the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever. Uh, do that if you get a chance. Or email me at omnifrog at earmark CPE. And maybe [00:06:30] I'll read your email. Okay. Also, don't miss Greg Kite and I at the new Jersey society of CPAs Convention and Expo on June 5th in Atlantic City at the Borgata Hotel and Casino. You can register at the link in the show notes. Also, if you need a live or virtual presentation on fraud or ethics email or fraud at earmarks. Com to get more information on pricing and availability. All right, that's enough business. Time for some fraud. [00:07:00] In 1982, 32 year old John Friedrich became executive director of the National Safety Council of Australia's Victorian division. Now, because many of you listening are not Australian, I'll just take a couple of minutes to explain a couple of things.

Caleb Newquist: First, Victoria is a state in southeastern Australia. Its population is just over [00:07:30] 7 million people, and that's the second largest state after New South Wales. That's where Sydney is, if that helps you. Victoria contains four of Australia's 20 largest cities, but Melbourne, with a population of nearly 5 million, is larger than the next three cities combined. Fun fact the common seadragon is the marine emblem of Victoria, and if you've never seen a common sea dragon, then you are definitely missing out. And you're listening [00:08:00] to this, so I'll try to describe it for you, but I'm sure at some point you'll get to look it up on Wikipedia or wherever. But anyway, a common sea dragon, uh, it kind of looks like a seahorse that swallowed a plastic hanger. Or maybe like a stick bug in a Halloween costume, but they couldn't decide if they wanted to be a dragon or a piece of kelp. But actually, actually, you know what? It's actually like a miniature elephant developed an eating disorder and wished for extra pairs of ears to be placed in random places all over [00:08:30] its body. Anyway, as for the National Safety Council of Australia, it was founded in 1927, in Victoria as a coalition of safety organizations from across Australia. It was initially formed to help reduce road accidents, but was expanded to be concerned with public safety of roads, sea and industry.

Caleb Newquist: Its members consisted of representatives from various government transportation departments, law enforcement unions, and other [00:09:00] organizations. They did things like provide safety lectures on the radio. John Friedrich joined the Nsc's Victorian Division as a safety engineer in 1977, and quickly rose to become its executive director in 1982, and he had big plans. Up until 1982, the National Safety Council was a nonprofit [00:09:30] focused on public safety of roads, sea and industrial matters, largely run by volunteers. John Friedrich, who became the executive director of the Nsc's Victoria division, was looking for an opportunity to turn it into something more. That opportunity came in 1983. Bushfires in Australia have been part of its ecosystem for millions of years. We can't possibly go into all there is to know about bushfires in Australia here, except to say that Eastern Australia, [00:10:00] which includes the state of Victoria, is one of the most fire prone places on earth. Bushfires occur regularly and throughout the region. It was the Ash Wednesday bushfires of 1983 that John Fredrick took as an opportunity to transform the National Safety Council. The Ash Wednesday bushfires of that year were a series of fires that caused Australia's worst devastation in more than a century at that time. Years of drought and high [00:10:30] winds created the conditions that caused more than 180 fires to spread within 12 hours across the states of Victoria and South Australia. On February 16th, 75 people were killed in the fires, including 17 firefighters, as well as hundreds of thousands of livestock and untold numbers of native animals.

Caleb Newquist: More than 3700 buildings were destroyed and more than 2500 people lost their homes. The damages were in excess of 400 [00:11:00] million AUD. That's over 1.5 billion AUD in 2025. It was the aftermath of these fires that Friedrich started to expand the Safety Council into a search and rescue operation in 1984. The council had about 100 employees, but over the second half of the 1980s that rose to around 450 employees. These employees were trained in firefighting, search and rescue operations, and conducted [00:11:30] many joint training exercises with the Royal Australian Navy and Royal Australian Air Force. The council actually provided the search and rescue operations for the Australian Air Force. Its resources were so robust that it reportedly had more advanced search and rescue equipment than the Australian Defense Force. That's the Defense Department for Australia, in case you're wondering. There were even rumors that its employees received weapons training, which effectively would have made it a paramilitary [00:12:00] organization. The National Safety Council would eventually have 19 bases across Australia, including multiple locations in Melbourne where its headquarters were located. It operated a large fleet of fixed wing airplanes and helicopters that were used in various types of operations. A 42 foot flagship. A fleet of rigid inflatable boats. Even a mini submarine. I don't know why they went for the mini, you know, maybe the full size. You know, maybe it's just a little bit out [00:12:30] of their budget, I don't know.

Caleb Newquist: Anyway, they had a mini submarine because of its public service role in providing health, safety and emergency services. The NSC was classified, quote, for practical purposes, as a quasi government body by one of the banks that worked with it. The Council became so well known and so successful in its operations that Friedrich was awarded the Medal of Order of Australia in 1988 for recognition [00:13:00] of service to the community, particularly in the area of industrial safety and search and rescue services. John Friedrich was a hero. So, practically speaking, how was Friedrich able to achieve this? Well, money of course, specifically with the help of banks. Lots of banks. The 1980s [00:13:30] is known as a period of easy lending in the United States, but that was also the case in Australia. John Friedrich established relationships with more than two dozen banks in Australia to help finance his expansion of the National Safety Council. His relationships were so good, in fact, that he was able to obtain loans with very little due diligence done by the lenders. As the National Safety Council's prestige and credibility grew with the public, it was also growing with the banks, who [00:14:00] were then all the more eager to lend money to Friedrich. He was very charismatic and well liked, but was later fond of saying that if you knew how to use the silverware in the dining room on the top floor of the bank building, then you'd be able to get a loan of any amount of money.

Caleb Newquist: It was Friedrich's charisma and reputation that shielded him from scrutiny for many years, but that charisma and reputation wouldn't last forever. In [00:14:30] late 1988, auditors of the National Safety Council informed the board of directors that they were qualifying their report for the past three years and not able to complete the current year's audit until they received certain information from the board. Board members found this to be odd because this was the first they had heard of any qualifications in prior audit reports. Now, if you're not an [00:15:00] accountant with this qualification bit means is that the audit found problems and those problems were big enough that they wouldn't sign off on the numbers. So it's it's kind of a big deal like it. It is it is highly unusual when that happens. And it usually means something's not right. It seems that these qualifications had been kept secret from the board, kept secret by [00:15:30] John Friedrich. The board immediately moved to appoint an accounting firm to investigate the alleged irregularities and report on the Safety Council's accounting procedures and internal controls. What the accountants found was shocking. A long term asset called containerized safety equipment turned out to be mostly nothing. Not kidding. Some of the containers didn't exist at all, [00:16:00] while others were nearly or entirely empty, and in some cases were of very poor quality. Friedrich kept many of the Safety Council's assets in large shipping containers for storage things like fuel, radio, equipment, search and rescue vehicles, and supplies based on the value of that full container.

Caleb Newquist: He was able to borrow additional money from lenders. He would then use that [00:16:30] money to buy another shipping container and then whatever else he wanted to continue expanding the Safety Council, things like cool ass helicopters and fixed wing airplanes. That was the stuff the public would see, that the banks would see. The empty containers were hidden away, but when anyone asked about them, they were simply told that they were full of more equipment, but nobody thought to actually look. The investigation determined that [00:17:00] the NSC was completely insolvent and had debts of nearly $300 million. When confronted with the facts by the board, Friedrich resigned. Then he disappeared and a nationwide manhunt began. Everyone wanted to know where John Friedrich was, but many people were also asking, who is he? Turns out he wasn't John Friedrich at all. He wasn't even Australian. [00:17:30] Johann Friedrich Hohenberger was born on September 7th, 1950, in Munich, West Germany, the second son of Johann Christian Hohenberger and Elisabeth Vagner. My German is awful and I don't even really speak it. But yeah. Vagner. We know this because an Australian journalist named Frank McGuire [00:18:00] was able to piece things together. Although not much was learned about Friedrich's early life, except that it's suspected that his childhood was difficult. In 1972, Hohenberger began working as a contractor for a road construction company, and in mid 1974 he requested that this company build roads in mountain towns in then West Germany, but no roads were ever built, no materials were ever purchased, and Hohenberger made off with 200,000 Deutschmarks. [00:18:30]

Caleb Newquist: German authorities issued a warrant for his arrest and discovered he was on a skiing holiday in the Italian Alps. One day on this holiday, Hohenberger went out and didn't come back. Assumed dead. Although authorities were suspicious about the disappearance, some of Schoenberger's personal effects were discovered later, and this all but closed the case. But then on January 20th, 1975, Hohenberger [00:19:00] turned up in Melbourne, Australia, arriving on a flight from Auckland, New Zealand. Two days later, Hohenberger left on a flight bound for Singapore, but John Friedrich remained in Australia. No one's exactly sure what happened, but as best as anyone can tell, Hohenberger somehow made it seem like he had left the country and then stayed in Australia, creating a new identity. Once this new identity was established, Hohenberger now Friedrich, got a job working [00:19:30] on part of the Melbourne Underground rail loop. Later on, while he was working as a community advisor for an Aboriginal mission in Ernabella, South Australia, he became seriously ill from an infection and was treated by a nurse named Shirley Manning. They married in February 1976 and would eventually have three children. It was in November 1976 when Friedrich applied for the safety engineer position with the National Safety Council. He [00:20:00] started work with the council in January 1977. I think most people have fantasized about being someone else.

Caleb Newquist: A bad day or a few hundred of them are enough to make anyone think maybe I should disappear. Start over somewhere else. Be someone else. For most of us, this fantasy is just that a fantasy. Even in the worst of times, [00:20:30] we face the music, we muddle through, we persevere, and we carry on with our lives. Still, many of us love a story of someone who does disappear and become someone else. The mystery of why they have to do this is sometimes sad or dangerous or just circumstantial. Take Don Draper, the lead character in Mad Men, played by Jon Hamm. Throughout the course of the show, we learned that Don Draper, who's an advertising executive in New York City, is not actually Don Draper. [00:21:00] That he was a man named Dick Whitman, who took the identity of a fellow soldier who was killed in the Korean War. Now, sorry if I just spoiled the show for you, but get the fuck over it, because it's been, like, 15 years. So, you know, still go watch it. It's very good. Anyway, as Don Dick creates a new life for himself, filled with intrigue and success. Failure, you know, heartbreak. Lots of heartbreak. Don's life as [00:21:30] an impostor and his former life as Dick Whitman. Those lives eventually collide, and the consequences that result are devastating. But there are plenty of fascinating stories of real imposters in real life. There's a whole Wikipedia page dedicated to real life impostors, and the motives behind these false identities are as varied as the people themselves.

Caleb Newquist: Everything from witness protection, espionage, infidelity, pranks to, you know, more pathological situations, including people who [00:22:00] have personality disorders. And yes, plenty of fraud. Frank Abagnale pretended to be all kinds of people so he could forge checks. Anna Sorokin pretended to be a German heiress so she could swindle members of Manhattan's high society. For some, adopting a false identity is a means of survival. For others, it's compulsion, a way to escape whatever baggage they're carrying around shame, debt, failure, or [00:22:30] maybe just to escape themselves. So why do you do it? Why did John Friedrich swindle banks for hundreds of millions of dollars? As regular listeners know, we sometimes refer to the infamous fraud triangle to determine why a person would perpetrate a fraud. If you're new to our show and new to this whole idea of the fraud triangle, [00:23:00] let me just break it down quickly. There's pressure and incentive. That's the external force that drives some people to commit fraud. They have to have opportunity. That's the second bit. The circumstances have to allow someone to be able to actually commit the fraud. And then there's rationalization. And rationalization kind of works like this. Most people know fraud is wrong, right? For those who don't or don't care, there's very little rationalization [00:23:30] going on. For those who do know that fraud is wrong. That doesn't necessarily stop them from committing fraud. They're able to justify their actions in some way.

Caleb Newquist: You know, like I'm going to pay it back, or I earn this money because I'm so dedicated to this company. That's the that's how they justify it in lots of stories. These three variables are pretty easy to identify. And when all else fails, you can always fall back on. More money is better than less money. [00:24:00] But Friedrich's case is a little bit more complex, particularly the pressure, incentive and rationalization pieces. The opportunity is pretty straightforward. I love I love the old quote. Why'd you rob the bank? Well, that's where the money is. These banks, more than two dozen of them, of which the state Bank of Victoria was the largest lender. They were offering Friedrich money. And so he took it. Friedrich's rationalization [00:24:30] is a bit murkier. By most accounts, the expansion of the Safety Council was helping to provide a public service making this kind of an altruistic fraud. You know, public service is just what it says, a service to the public good. And in the course of its work, the National Safety Council saved hundreds of lives. And I think saving saving lives, I think is most people would agree, is [00:25:00] good in multiple sources for this story, people who worked for the National Safety Council or lived in the communities where it had a presence talked about the pride, prestige and economic benefit that the Council brought with it. This was largely due to the efforts of John Friedrich.

Caleb Newquist: And he knew it was due to his efforts. And perhaps that's how he justified his actions. This altruism and the rationalization is [00:25:30] closely related to Friedrich's pressure and incentive as well. The incentive for him was prestige and admiration of his community peers, you know, national, state and local government officials. He worked with his employees, all those people. Now, if you're a little more cynical, you might say that, oh, this was about self-aggrandizement to serve, you know, his ego, to serve Friedrich's ego. And you're probably right. That's probably part of it, too. What clearly [00:26:00] wasn't part of it was Friedrich keeping the money for himself. He did not live a lavish life. There was no evidence that he spent any of the money on himself or his family. His salary was relatively modest, given the prominence of his position and the money provided by the banks. He just put it back into the NSC. John Friedrich, as one psychologist who was interviewed, put it, he wasn't building a bank account. He was building an icon. [00:26:30] The search for John Friedrich created a media frenzy. People were fascinated with this mysterious, charismatic man who had achieved so many great inspiring things. Sightings of him were reported all over Australia. Speculation ran wild about who he and the NSC actually were. Some believed Friedrich [00:27:00] to be a spy, and with all of its sophisticated equipment, government connections and overall paramilitary vibe, that the NSC was actually a front for the CIA. All these twists and turns made for a great story.

Caleb Newquist: It was a nightmare for Friedrich's family. His wife appeared repeatedly on TV, pleading for him to turn himself in and that his family would support him. Likewise, the employees of the NSC were shocked by this news that the leader of their organization [00:27:30] had been keeping this massive secret. It was devastating for the Safety Council and the communities it was a part of. Today, the National Safety Council more resembles its roots than the massive operation that Friedrich built. It is a small scale nonprofit that focuses on promoting occupational safety training, consulting and auditing. Friedrich finally turned up in Perth, the capital of the state of Western Australia, and was arrested on April 6th, 1989. [00:28:00] He was extradited back to Victoria, where he was eventually charged with 91 counts of obtaining property by deception. Friedrich retained an attorney by the name of Zig Ziglar, who spent a lot of time with the man accused of this massive swindle. Ziegler had the chance to observe Friedrich among his friends and family, and privately it seemed like that this is where he was the happiest. A place where he could be himself at ease, and not having to pretend [00:28:30] to be this charismatic captain of industry. But even with his lawyer, Friedrich wouldn't reveal who he was, where he had come from, and that he was not. Willing to reclaim his previous identity that he had left behind. Taylor said that Friedrich was deeply afraid that he would be deported back to Germany, and that he saw deep discomfort within Friedrich when he discussed Germany.

Caleb Newquist: Taylor went on to say that he believed Friedrich's father didn't see him as [00:29:00] a person who had worth, and that Friedrich was, quote, out to prove him wrong. Or, as the myth goes. Taylor concluded. On the morning of July 27th, 1991, just a few days before he would go to trial, John Friedrich was found in a muddy field with a single gunshot wound to the head. Almost immediately, rumors began to circulate about the possibility that he was bumped off. Authorities ruled his death [00:29:30] a suicide. While out on bail. In about a year or so before his trial, Friedrich was in desperate need for money, and he struck a deal to write his memoir. To make matters slightly worse, he was worried for his safety, suggesting to others that he may, one way or another, wind up dead. [00:30:00] For over a year, Friedrich failed to deliver a manuscript to his publisher, even after they'd tried to pair various ghostwriters with him, to no avail. Then, with about six weeks to go before the trial, the publisher told Friedrich to find his own writer to work with, but John Friedrich didn't know any writers. Fortunately, one of his bodyguards, a former parachute jumper with the National Safety Council, had a friend who wanted to be a writer. That wannabe writer was Richard Flanagan. [00:30:30] In an interview on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation podcast conversations.

Caleb Newquist: Flanagan went into great detail about his experience with John Friedrich. There seemed to be many sides to John Friedrich. Many people spoke of him with admiration and reverence for what he built the National Safety Council into. Friedrich's lawyer, Zig Ziglar, saw a more mixed picture of almost a tragic figure. Richard Flanagan saw something altogether different based on his time [00:31:00] with Friedrich something darker, something more sinister. He saw a man who spoke in half truths. A man of secrets who is deeply cynical about the world. Someone who you never knew who he really was. But he invited you into his darkness. What Zailer and Flanagan did agree on was Friedrich's unique ability to convince people into seeing his grand vision, to enthrall them by painting a picture that he wanted people to see based [00:31:30] on the lies he was telling. No matter how implausible those lies were, the final memoir, Codename Iago the Story of John Friedrich was published in the months after Friedrich's death. In it, among other claims, Friedrich said that he was recruited by the CIA and worked all over the world fighting far left extremists before moving to Australia. In the interview with the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, Flanagan said of the book, quote, it's said of most writers [00:32:00] first novels that the criticism is that they're autobiographical. But in my case, my first autobiography was rapidly degenerating into a novel. A review in The Australian called it, quote, one of the least reliable but most fascinating memoirs in the annals of Australian publishing.

Caleb Newquist: There you go. So what did we learn? Um, [00:32:30] I think one thing we learned is that when money is easy, banks love to dish it out. Okay. Careless. Careless. Bank lending. In a way, it's kind of a classic story in that sense. Uh, one that's really been around since lending's been around. You know, you get this ambitious, charismatic, successful figures. You know, they go to a bank and they tell bankers that they have this big vision for something. Uh, but that's all it is. You know, it's a vision built on smoke and mirrors. Um, but to put a spin on an old saying, [00:33:00] you can always fool some bankers all the time. You just got to find the right bankers. Right. Um, also, this story reminded me a little bit of Toby Curtsinger from episode eight, the Pappy Gate episode. Um, if you if you don't know the story, Toby was kind of the ringleader slash scapegoat in that story. Um, but anyway, one of the things that he said, one of the reasons that he kept swiping all that bourbon was that he liked [00:33:30] being, quote, unquote, the guy, you know, the guy who could get people's stuff. And I feel like John Friedrich was a guy. He was a guy who built a huge search and rescue operation that did all this heroic stuff. You know, so much fraud is about people taking money for the sake of taking money, having the money, you know, so you can have fast cars and mega yachts and lots of commas in your bank account.

Caleb Newquist: But for some purpose, that's not really it at all. It's [00:34:00] about the perception that they create for themselves the perception of greatness, of being someone important, someone who will leave something behind that lasts. Someone who's building a legacy. Remember that one? That one psychologist said John wasn't building a bank account. He was building an icon. And he did build one. He just happened to be building a greater con in the process. Okay, that's it for this episode. And [00:34:30] remember, if a con man needs a memoir, it's probably fiction. If you have questions, comments, or suggestions for stories, drop me a line at my fraud@earmarks.com or hit me up on LinkedIn. This episode was suggested to us by an Australian listener, Jay. Thanks, Jay for telling us about this story. Uh, it was a good one. So yeah, let us know if you've got stories that you want us to tell. Oh my fraud is created, written, produced and hosted by me. [00:35:00] Caleb Newquist Zach Frank is my co-producer, audio engineer, and music supervisor. Laura Hobbs designed our logo. Rate. Review and subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. If you listen on earmark, earn some CPE while you're there. All right. Okay. Join us next time for more avarice, swindlers and scams from stories that will make you say, oh my fraud.